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Age of Unreason - new album out May 3, 2019

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Harbortown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/05/2019 at 02:47
Originally posted by Metmass Metmass wrote:

 
Perhaps it's the effect of drum editing - perfectly aligning every hit to the grid?
Perhaps it's just the drum sound...

I'm eager to hear something slower / more varied on the record to judge but this whole thing reminds me of Dream Theater. People argue that Mike Mangini supposedly plays like a robot compared to the "full of life" and "real sounding" Portnoy. Many people blamed MM himself but the last record is mixed differently and, what do you know, the drums feel much more alive. The mix matters a lot...
I think that's probably it! If you listen to a song like Atheist peace, cymbal hits are very dynamic in terms of volume and how hard Brooks hit them. I don't get the same feel here.

And I know what you mean about the Dream Theater thing. The mix is 100% important - Mike Mangini is a phenomenal drummer, and so is Miller. His fills are amazing!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote n1ckb0n3z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/05/2019 at 12:10
Sorry to break it to you guys, but Jamie Miller is just THAT good. He's literally a machine. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote n1ckb0n3z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/05/2019 at 12:19
After seeing all this discussion about the technical aspects of the new songs, it's quite funny to think about how many of ya'll were excited when Hole in the Ship was released publicly. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Moonshineman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/05/2019 at 18:05
Originally posted by n1ckb0n3z n1ckb0n3z wrote:

After seeing all this discussion about the technical aspects of the new songs, it's quite funny to think about how many of ya'll were excited when Hole in the Ship was released publicly. 

HAHAHAHA. True. As only an amateur musician, I can tell you all that I don't hear any of the things you're complaining about. And yeah, if you can enjoy those fuzzy Graffin country demos you can certainly appreciate this too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote marvthezombie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/12/2019 at 18:32
Originally posted by Harbortown Harbortown wrote:

Originally posted by Metmass Metmass wrote:

 
Perhaps it's the effect of drum editing - perfectly aligning every hit to the grid?
Perhaps it's just the drum sound...

I'm eager to hear something slower / more varied on the record to judge but this whole thing reminds me of Dream Theater. People argue that Mike Mangini supposedly plays like a robot compared to the "full of life" and "real sounding" Portnoy. Many people blamed MM himself but the last record is mixed differently and, what do you know, the drums feel much more alive. The mix matters a lot...
I think that's probably it! If you listen to a song like Atheist peace, cymbal hits are very dynamic in terms of volume and how hard Brooks hit them. I don't get the same feel here.

And I know what you mean about the Dream Theater thing. The mix is 100% important - Mike Mangini is a phenomenal drummer, and so is Miller. His fills are amazing!


The way a lot of modern album production works is that drums are recorded in-studio and then digital recordings of drum hits are laid on top of the sound mix, thus giving the consistent punch every time the snare, tom, kick, crash, etc are hit. It sounds powerful, but for an audiophile it get super distracting.

That said, I'm fucking psyched for this album. Also pretty sure I haven't logged into this account in like five years. Glad to see you all are still at it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote loggamatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/12/2019 at 20:21
Here’s the deal... Jamie Miller just isn’t as good as Brooks Wackerman. It’s that simple. What you’re missing from the sound is all the tiny subtleties of technique that Brooks was a master of, that most non-drummers couldn’t even pick out but do realise that something is missing when they’re not there anymore, even if they don’t know exactly what it is.

Jamie Miller is fine, and his live drumming suits the band well. But Brooks is one of the greatest drummers in the world, and now suddenly the drumming seems undefinably worse after he left? Not a huge shock I would say!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote n1ckb0n3z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2019 at 08:55
Originally posted by loggamatt loggamatt wrote:

Here’s the deal... Jamie Miller just isn’t as good as Brooks Wackerman. It’s that simple. What you’re missing from the sound is all the tiny subtleties of technique that Brooks was a master of, that most non-drummers couldn’t even pick out but do realise that something is missing when they’re not there anymore, even if they don’t know exactly what it is.

Jamie Miller is fine, and his live drumming suits the band well. But Brooks is one of the greatest drummers in the world, and now suddenly the drumming seems undefinably worse after he left? Not a huge shock I would say!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Marty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2019 at 09:21
Originally posted by loggamatt loggamatt wrote:

Here’s the deal... Jamie Miller just isn’t as good as Brooks Wackerman. It’s that simple. What you’re missing from the sound is all the tiny subtleties of technique that Brooks was a master of, that most non-drummers couldn’t even pick out but do realise that something is missing when they’re not there anymore, even if they don’t know exactly what it is.

Jamie Miller is fine, and his live drumming suits the band well. But Brooks is one of the greatest drummers in the world, and now suddenly the drumming seems undefinably worse after he left? Not a huge shock I would say!
Then again, I'm perfectly fine with the drumming on Generator through The New America. Yet Bobby is probably also nowhere close to Brooks.
So how does that work?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote loggamatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2019 at 11:27
Originally posted by Marty Marty wrote:

Originally posted by loggamatt loggamatt wrote:

Here’s the deal... Jamie Miller just isn’t as good as Brooks Wackerman. It’s that simple. What you’re missing from the sound is all the tiny subtleties of technique that Brooks was a master of, that most non-drummers couldn’t even pick out but do realise that something is missing when they’re not there anymore, even if they don’t know exactly what it is.

Jamie Miller is fine, and his live drumming suits the band well. But Brooks is one of the greatest drummers in the world, and now suddenly the drumming seems undefinably worse after he left? Not a huge shock I would say!
Then again, I'm perfectly fine with the drumming on Generator through The New America. Yet Bobby is probably also nowhere close to Brooks.
So how does that work?


Well, those albums were of their time. The production of Generator sounds like a really good garage band to me, and Bobby’s drumming was like a really good garage band drummer on it. The problem with Bobby is that he just got slower over time... anyone who believes that the reason he played half as many hi-hat/ride hits during live performances of songs with double time punk songs as is standard really was a stylistic choice and not a limitation of stamina is being very generous!

A lot of my friends who don’t like BR used to make fun of them for being the slowest punk band in the world. Then TPOB happened, and everyone admits that they sounded like they’d just had a turbocharger fitted! That turbocharger was partly a songwriting change with Brett returning, but also partly that Brooks was physically and technically another level from Bobby. Most non-drummers don’t acknowledge that, they just say that it sounded faster and more ‘modern’, but this is the impact that a change of drummer can have to a band.

Jamie is physically close to being the equal of Brooks, but technically isn’t as good. Also stylistically, he doesn’t seem to have a signature sound like Brooks or Bobby both did. I could pick out Bobby Schayer or Brooks Wackerman drumming anywhere, as they both had defining sounds. Jamie Miller’s drumming on the new songs so far sounds like standard punk drumming by numbers stuff. So I stand by my view that what you’re hearing is a drummer downgrade.

Still, I’m sure it’ll still be a good album. Genuinely there are not many drummers at Brooks’ level around... most albums that I love don’t have a drummer as good as he is on them, but I still like the album overall as that’s just one component.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chainofslowdecay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2019 at 18:52
Originally posted by loggamatt loggamatt wrote:

 
A lot of my friends who don’t like BR used to make fun of them for being the slowest punk band in the world. Then TPOB happened, and everyone admits that they sounded like they’d just had a turbocharger fitted! That turbocharger was partly a songwriting change with Brett returning, but also partly that Brooks was physically and technically another level from Bobby. Most non-drummers don’t acknowledge that, they just say that it sounded faster and more ‘modern’, but this is the impact that a change of drummer can have to a band.

To be fair to Bobby, that contrast seems a lot greater because New America and No Substance were written as very slow albums and Process had quite a few burners. If the order would have went, say, Stranger Than Fiction to The Descent of Man, I'm not sure Brooks would seem "faster" he would just be more technical.                                                                     
I agree with you that Bobby got a little lazy with the right hand later in his tenure. I still think he fit BR better than Brooks stylistically, but that is more opinion than anything. I loved how consistent Bobby was with the bass drum, and his "gallop" fit the songs so well. Brooks was all over the place with the bass drum at times, sometimes within the same verse or chorus. And for every jaw-dropping Brooks fill there is a fill that seems to come off weird or start/end half a step early or something. Don't get me wrong, Brooks is a phenom and I loved his years in BR. I'm just more of a Bobby guy. The jury is out on Jamie. So far I tend to agree with your generic fast punk drummer assessment. I'm having a hard time getting a feel for any sort of uniqueness. Maybe a full record will define him more. 




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote loggamatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2019 at 20:46
I’m probably being a little harsh on Jamie due to the fact that I just have a huge drumming crush on Brooks! Haha He was one of my favourite drummers already from his Suicidal Tendencies and Vandals days... so when he joined my favourite band, BR, it was one of the best days of my life!

No drummer will ever compare to Brooks for me. Jamie Miller is definitely better than most, and they could have done a lot worse with their new drummer hiring. He makes very exaggerated arm movements when playing live, which gives the impression of playing harder, so in terms of showmanship he probably fits the style better than Brooks did.

Bobby just wasn’t up to it physically. The consistent kick you’re talking about is that Bobby couldn’t manage fast heel/toe playing like Brooks and Jamie can, so he played a lot of ‘one-and’ patterns instead of fast doubles on the faster songs, even sometimes clashing with Jay’s bass pattern. Maybe that’s a sound you prefer as all art is matter of opinion, but I see it as further evidence that he wasn’t fast enough for the band. If you listen to some of the Stranger than Fiction songs on the Tested album, all the life has gone out of the drumming. This is because Bobby only played half the hi-hat/ride hits, and his fills just sounded weak. Brooks and Jamie can play singles at consistent velocity around the kit, whereas Bobby live would accent the pulse, but almost ghost the other hits. Maybe this was a stylistic choice, or maybe it was a lack of power, but I don’t think it worked either way.

I’m not totally trashing Bobby either... he had an iconic playing style in the early days, and I loved his playing on Generator. I just think he lost some of his stamina as time went by. But then, don’t we all? I can’t play as consistently fast as I used to certainly!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chainofslowdecay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2019 at 23:15
Wow, I totally disagree about the Stranger Than Fiction drumming being lifeless. I think that is my favorite BR album drum wise, it just sounds great. As far as Bobby's fast punk beat, his leaned more D-beat style. I don't think it was because he couldn't do the fast doubles. If you listen to a song like Hooray For Me, for example, he is doing single- double-double-double in the verses. I prefer the more galloping d-beat style to the fast NOFX-esqe doubles, it suits the guitar strumming better IMO. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote loggamatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/14/2019 at 10:32
Originally posted by Chainofslowdecay Chainofslowdecay wrote:

Wow, I totally disagree about the Stranger Than Fiction drumming being lifeless. I think that is my favorite BR album drum wise, it just sounds great. As far as Bobby's fast punk beat, his leaned more D-beat style. I don't think it was because he couldn't do the fast doubles. If you listen to a song like Hooray For Me, for example, he is doing single- double-double-double in the verses. I prefer the more galloping d-beat style to the fast NOFX-esqe doubles, it suits the guitar strumming better IMO. 


Fair enough, as I say, art is all a matter of opinion. Though just to be clear, I didn’t say the STF drumming was lifeless on that album... I said his live playing of it on the Tested album was lifeless.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chainofslowdecay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/15/2019 at 12:46
Oh ok, got it. Fair enough.                                                                                                                                                       

Back to Age of Unreason, I just realized it's been so long since a BR album that I don't think there is even a record store open in my town. I have a tradition of picking up the album and reading along at first listen. Cicra True North, there were a couple record stores, but they have closed. Now just vintage places left. It isn't going to feel the same buying it online. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote loggamatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/15/2019 at 18:14
Originally posted by Chainofslowdecay Chainofslowdecay wrote:

Oh ok, got it. Fair enough.                                                                                                                                                       

Back to Age of Unreason, I just realized it's been so long since a BR album that I don't think there is even a record store open in my town. I have a tradition of picking up the album and reading along at first listen. Cicra True North, there were a couple record stores, but they have closed. Now just vintage places left. It isn't going to feel the same buying it online. 




What’s even worse is this whole teasing of online tracks. I used to love being able to listen to the whole album from start to finish for the first time. I remember when Empire Strikes First came out... I was living in a shared house so couldn’t play music loud. I drove out to the middle of nowhere, parked, closed my eyes, and blasted it out on my car stereo. Good times!

I know I could just elect not to listen to the teaser tracks, but I don’t have anywhere near enough will power for that! Haha
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Harbortown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2019 at 08:14
The d-beat is so much better than the double bass drum beat in my opinion. It has a more aggressive vibe whereas the double bass drum beat feels more...controlled. 
Comparing a song like In their hearts is right to Marked, I just think the latter sounds so much more intense even though they're nearly the same bpm. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote loggamatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2019 at 09:20
Originally posted by Harbortown Harbortown wrote:

The d-beat is so much better than the double bass drum beat in my opinion. It has a more aggressive vibe whereas the double bass drum beat feels more...controlled. 
Comparing a song like In their hearts is right to Marked, I just think the latter sounds so much more intense even though they're nearly the same bpm. 


I wouldn’t say that Brooks consistently played doubles in that song anyway, he varies his pattern a lot in it. I suppose that’s the difference, Bobby picked a kick pattern (usually the same one) and usually stuck with it the whole way through a song from start to finish. I sometimes found that a bit boring... I mean, on some albums he could honestly have just recorded that pattern once, a couple of singles around the kit fills, and copied and pasted it onto each song in Pro Tools. If you want the drumming to blend into the background then I guess that’s fine, but Brooks added a lot of subtle intricacies that I think gave the music more texture.

I did always like when Bobby hit the 3 crashes going between sections though, that always sounded cool.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Harbortown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 05:13
I love the subtle intricacies too, but that's not what he does in In their hearts is right. He plays the same "d-beat" pattern throughout the song (save for the chorus, of course), with only slight variations. 

Either way, that's what I'm talking about: him never playing the d-beat that Pete Finestone and Bobby Schayer usually did. A classic d-beat would be (k for kick, x for hi-hat/ride, s for snare):

x - x       x       x
k - s - k      k - s 

But what Brooks typically does is he omits the second bass kick hit. That's what annoys me. He does his own spin on the d-beat, which he's entitled to because he's the drummer, but I don't like the sound of it at all. I also would absolutely contend that he doesn't vary the pattern to the point where each song is unique. Plenty of examples: Grains of wrath, The Quickening, Live again, Only rain, Resist stance, The Island, I could go on. 

Again, I'm only talking about him playing his version of the d-beat. Not his other beats or drum fills, which usually are amazing. 


Edited by Harbortown - Yesterday at 05:21
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chainofslowdecay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 06:37
Originally posted by Harbortown Harbortown wrote:


But what Brooks typically does is he omits the second bass kick hit. 

Back when I played in bands my drummer called that the "cheat beat" and you can hear that on a lot of Youth Crew-era HC bands. The band Strike Anywhere, who I liked a lot, also did that beat but it was mainly because they played a bit faster than BR and the drummer couldn't do the regular d-beat or doubles at that pace. One of my more recent faves, Crusades, also does the "cheat beat" for fast songs because he is a pop punk drummer and doesn't do hardcore much. I notice Brooks doing that occasionally but it is mixed in with him playing doubles or his version of d-beat depending on rhythm. I also don't know how often Brooks is using double pedal. Like I assume Vanity is double pedal but I am not certain. I don't think he uses it in many of the other songs other than fills but I'm not sure I never watched his feet live. I love Brooks for his creativity in the mid tempo or slower songs, and his fast fills can be amazing as well. But for straight up fast punk songs- which is like 80 percent of BR- I prefer Bobby or Pete. 

All this is nitpicking though. All three are great and I have never thought ANY drumming in BR has ruined a record or song, I just like some styles more than others. I suspect Miller will be fine and we will get used to him. 
 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Harbortown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 hours 27 minutes ago at 02:33
Cheat beat! That's a good term. 

It IS nitpicking, but I'm all about details. 
Sometimes they play a major chord where they "should" be playing a minor chord, and while it doesn't deter me from listening to the songs, it always leaves me with a sense of "this would be so much better if they had just done it the other way". 

As far as Jamie is concerned, I feel like we need to hear Age of unreason in its entirety before we get a real sense of what he's capable of in the band.
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