Interview with Brian Baker
From volume 13, issue 10 of Zia Zine.
Released on May 15, 2000.
Bad Religion has proved many things to the world, like: A) punk rock can have more than three chords; B) punk rock can be much more than “thug music“; actually, it can be quite eloquent, which leads to; C) punk rawk is an intellectual pursuit worthy of respect [just read singer Greg Graffin’s Punk Manifesto on the Bad Religion website]; D) it is possible to compete with major corporations on their own playing field [Epitaph, need we remind you], and ultimately; E) it is possible to succeed in this dog-eat-dog business with your ideals intact, if you walk the talk.
After 20 years and almost as many albums of fighting conformity and apathy, Bad Religion’s latest album, New America, reveals a rather surprising change in attitude; but one the men would certainly call a “natural evolution.“ Here the Zine attempted to keep up with guitar wizard Brian Baker...
ZIA ZINE: Can we start with questions about you first?
BRIAN BAKER: Sure.
ZZ: You were asked to replace Peter Holsapple in REM at the same time you were asked to join Bad Religion?
BB:Yeah (laughs)... kind of interesting. The opportunity to do a touring cycle with REM as a hired musician versus being a member of Bad Religion, it wasn’t too hard for me to make that call.
ZZ: [Playing devil’s advocate, badly] But then a huge band versus a punk band, even one as respected as Bad Religion...
BB: But you have to think long term in these sorts of things. That’s why I’m in mutual funds instead of day trading.
ZZ: Was the music choice a given for you too?
BB: Well, no. I’m a huge REM fan, and I’ve played a number of different types of music over the years; but I started my musical career, if you want to call it that, playing punk rock in this band Minor Threat. It wasn’t exactly a stretch for me to do the Bad Religion thing at all. I kinda know where I belong; a put-your-best-foot-forward type thing. After 20 years of doing this it’s pretty much second nature, which is why we don’t rehearse anymore.
ZZ: I understand you walked into your first audition knowing like 25-30 songs already.
BB: Well, these aren’t exactly the most taxing things to play! I was a fan of band and knew everyone except Graffin, so it wasn’t even really like an audition. I happened to know a bunch of the songs, just like I know Sex Pistols songs. ’Course if the Sex Pistols called I wouldn’t go try out...
ZZ: You stepped into the band after it was already together for all those years, especially Greg and Jay. Was it difficult being the new guy?
BB: Well, it would be difficult if I was replacing Brett Gurewitz, but I really wasn’t. He was a rhythm guitarist who wrote a lot of songs, and I’m a lead guitar player who only really writes songs if nobody else is going to. The songwriting issues, the partnership between Brett and Greg, had been forged over 15 years at that point, and to try and step in and do that would’ve been ridiculous. It also happened at a perfect time because Graffin was taking the opportunity to bear the songwriting weight on his own, which I think was really beneficial to his writing. So I basically focused on guitar, and wasn’t stepping into anybody’s shoes. I mean, Brett played guitar as a function of a songwriter, but he wasn’t proficient or really interested in the guitar as an instrument. You can probably hear the difference in the records I’ve been on; I take the guitar more seriously. It’s fun, I have this open tableau to work with.
ZZ: You walked into a band that was also strongly ideological and opinionated. Did you fit in?
BB: Fortunately I grew up in Washington D.C., the only child of left-wing media parents. Both of them worked in television. Politically and even sociologically I was on the same page as Bad Religion anyway, so there was no ideological problem at all.
ZZ: As far as the songwriting, is it a democracy?
BB: Well, it is a democracy. We liken it to a race car team. The best driver’s the driver; the guy who can fill the gas in six seconds at the pit stop fills the gas. I have absolutely no problem having Greg carry the songwriting load because he’s the best songwriter. Everyone’s encouraged to do anything they want. On this new record I didn’t really contribute anything tangible that you would call songwriting, but I took Greg’s barchords and turned them into other things. For some reason the excitement of seeing your name credited on a song isn’t important to me; what’s important to me is what you hear. I’m perfectly happy with the way things are going.
ZZ: YouÕre the melody and the mood.
BB: Yeah, that’s kind of what it is. Greg Graffin’s a proficient guitar player to write songs, as was Brett... I get a sketch from him and tighten it up a little bit.
ZZ: This new album is especially melodic. Did you spend more time on it?
BB: Oh, much more. About 18 months for the whole writing process. Even though we’re not really heralding it as such, it is the 20-year anniversary of the band. The record previous to this, No Substance, I think is flawed in some ways, and those flaws were based on us not really taking enough time. I think we felt then that anything we do is gonna work. In retrospect, that last record is flawed precisely because of the amount of effort we put in. Greg Graffin said on this record that you can hear the effort.
ZZ: Interesting-- I really liked No Substance personally.
BB: I donÕt think it’s a bad record, it’s just not as strong overall as this one. There’s some soft spots on No Substance that wouldn’t have been there if we’d taken more time with it.
ZZ: It was more “old BR“, huh?
BB: (snickers)
ZZ: The very first thing that hit me on New America was the positive tone. How did that happen?
BB: It was interesting; it came about as a bit of a coincidence. Initially, in analyzing the past of Bad Religion and what we were going to do with this record-- Greg especially -- we were a little tired of whining. Not to imply that everything previous was whining, but there was a lot of negativity-- it’s the nature of social commentary. But at this point in our lives, I don’t hate everything anymore and neither does Greg. He was already conscious of trying to find more positive things, or at least trying to resolve our characteristic issues with an upward note instead of a negative one. Then when we met Todd Rundgren, our producer, and one of the first things he said was, “For the last 15 years you’ve been talking about change; have you ever thought about changing yourself?’ Which really cut to the quick, because not only is he a great producer, but a student of music. It was kind of interesting that that was the first observation he had, and it coincided with the way things were shaping up songwise. Every record is a reflection of where the band is at the time it was written. Where we were and where we are now, it’s just really difficult across the board to be angry. There’s a lot of good stuff going on.
ZZ: Really? Do you feel more genuine hope these days?
BB: I think so. Not if you watch the television news, but just in general. I think it’s maybe the process of aging. I mean, everybody’s over 30, and-- I donÕt have any children, but three of the other guys do, and I think it’s a human progression. This is what happens when you reach adulthood! We’ve been trying to extend our childhoods artificially for so long that we finally capitulated to the fact that we’re adults, and everything doesn’t have to be some horrible situation.
ZZ: I’m in the same age group, and the one thing that really affects me is apathy in the younger audiences. Maybe it’s just getting old... Do you see it?
BB: I do, but it’s hard for me to characterize it as apathy. What happens generationally is, “What are these damn kids doing with their baggy pants, their Korn and Slipknot, what the...?“ That could just be because I’ve finally gotten to be that old. It could also be that, across the board, the quality of education and the amount of external stimuli that reaches somebody who’s 15 is markedly different than what I received at 15. I don’t really think it’s fair to blame the youth on this; this is a broader topic that’s touched on in places in “New America“. Society’s becoming more insular, and human interaction is becoming less and less important, and I think that could definitely contribute to an apathetic view of the world. If you see the world through your computer monitor, I think you need real live interaction to get happy about things!
ZZ: Then did you all feel that more positive-ness was a way to address this, and maybe spur on more interaction?
BB: I think using the word “positive“ isn’t quite accurate. The word “hope“ is a better way to characterize it. Obviously songs are written for yourself, but the underlying theme is you want to reach people, provoke thought. I would say that a more hopeful message would help people to ponder life’s complexities in a way that maybe is looking towards the positive, as opposed to getting mired in everything that’s bad.
ZZ: You’ve also started the Bad Religion Research Fund [the band’s active effort at change], and there’s also a book Greg’s doing, a guide for young bands? Is that his own project or are you all involved?
BB: That’s his own project. It’s been ongoing for the last six or seven years, and I certainly haven’t seen page one, so you’d have to chalk that up to a press release! You’d have to ask him about the progress, but every time I’m at his house he’s mowing the lawn or going out to play hockey, so I don’t see a whole lot of book writin’ goin’ on! (laughs)
ZZ: The Research Fund’s happening, isn’t it? That’s a good thing.
BB: Oh absolutely. It’s not a ridiculous amount of money, but when you’re talking field work in natural sciences, there’s virtually no grant money available. Obviously it’s the brainchild of Greg, since it was the field he was teaching, but we all agree that it’s an attempt for people to get out in the real world and experience things on their own. If that little $5000 grant can make the difference between somebody getting PhD and getting a job at Wendy’s, then I’m totally behind it.
ZZ: As you get older, do you find it harder to be a liberal?
BB: Yeah I do. But only on issues that affect me financially, or infrastructure issues about the world I’m in. My political leanings haven’t changed in any way, and fortunately I’m never in danger of going too far right, to say the “Republican“ word, until they can get the fundamentalist Christian influence, the anti-abortion and pro-gun things out of their platform. Whereas I want the stock market to stay up and property values to be good, and I want goods and services to be delivered efficiently, I think a woman has a right to choose what she does with her body, and I don’t think people should be allowed... to have... handguns! Constitution schmonstitution, it’s a completely different society. I spend a lot of time overseas, in countries where there’s 30 handgun deaths a years where there’s a population the size of Texas. You compare that to the United States, it’s just insane. So that’s what’s gonna keep me off the G.W. Bush ticket this year. I hate the fact that I have to vote for Al Gore, because he’s complicit in what that other guy who’s president has done to soil the office, but it’s the lesser of two evils. As long as I’ve been of voting age that’s pretty much been my choice, the lesser of two evils, so there’s no reason why it should change now.
ZZ: Who would be your ideal candidate?
BB: I volunteered for Bill Bradlee until he wasn’t running anymore. I live in DC, so when I was home I went over and ran Xeroxes and stuff. My touring cycle interfered with it, but I could at least say I tried. If you don’t make an effort, then you can’t complain about it.
ZZ: Do you go to many rallies there?
BB: I missed the latest few-- it really depends on if it’s something that’s passionate. The last time I went as an irate citizen to complain was six months ago. There was reported to be a Klan demonstration they had permits for, but it wasn’t much of a rally since they didn’t show up! The way I live my life, you have to make stands. I’m certainly not a radical liberal; I’m not going to change my name to Timberwolf and cut my hair into a mohawk, with a gasmask on; there’s a limit here! And it’s arguable that what I’m doing with Bad Religion is certainly going to affect more people than standing in front of the world bank... with a gas mask on. Fortunately, in my job I get to protest as well.
ZZ: Do you still do commentary live?
BB: There’s nothing scripted about our performance at all; even the set list is made up every night, so it’s whatever anyone feels like saying. If Graffin read something in USA Today a few days before that bothered him, he might ramble on about it, but in the hour and a half we’re playing we now have over 100 songs to choose from, so the primary goal is to play as many as possible within that time period. There’s not a lot of time to stop and poll the audience.
ZZ: Yeah... I remember in Phoenix a few years ago, the crowd just wouldn’t let you guys off the stage; you played every song you knew and then some. I donÕt think you were in the band yet...
BB: I dunno; I’ve been in since ’94...
ZZ: I think it was earlier. This is a little cliche, but do you think that punk rock is still alive, as opposed to 15-20 years ago?
BB: Well, it’s still alive in the sense of how I define punk rock, which is very very simple, “do what you want.“ At this point you can only distill it down to independent thought, and one of the things about punk that’s still as valid as it was many years ago is that it’s something anybody can do. It’s still the closest thing we’ve had in the last 30 years to folk music; amazing parallels can be drawn between punk rock and mid-20th century country music. But on the other hand, due to the success of many, many punk bands, it’s become just another musical genre. When it was a small underground movement, for lack of a better word, there was an exclusivity to it and a certain-- excitement-- to being the underdog, a certain danger that will never be there again. Now it’s a fashion issue, another form of popular music. Not like how it was when we were kids.
ZZ: Although I understand that in Europe and South America, fans are still very fervent and devoted to the idea...
BB: Oh, absolutely-- much more so than they are here. It’s great to play there. You can attribute it to anything you want, but there is a passion in those countries that isn’t here. There’s been a lot of really good punk music that’s come out of this country in the last 20 years, but in South America that hasn’t been the case. So there’s a lot more excitement generated by bands like us who come down there, because we’re the basic building blocks of what they’ve done with their own music. Even Black Flag never got to go South America; Circle Jerks never went to South America. It’s a pretty big deal to get your shit down there, so you need to be a band at least on our level, or NoFx, to be able to get there. So they’re pretty appreciative.
ZZ: It’s interesting that you say you’re not a punk rocker.
BB: Thematically it’s still there; that’s why IÕll always characterize Bad Religion as a punk band. But I don’t think the punk label should constrict stylistically what’s happening musically. I always thought punk was a bit more cerebral than just the tempo of a song. In Bad Religion’s case I think weÕve been able to do both.
ZZ: You do side projects as well... You worked with Ric Ocasek?
BB: That was a couple of years ago. He was doing a solo record, and I played on it and toured with him. I got to pretend to be in the Cars, like winning an MTV contest! It was great.
ZZ: Do you find it difficult to step into other bands like that? You’ve stepped in quite a few...
BB: No, not really. Guitar’s really the only thing I’ve managed in my 30-something years to do well, and consistently. I love playing all kinds of music. When the Ric thing came up it was perfect, because it was Bad Religion’s down-time. I like to test myself. I’m always doing weird things, off the beaten path.
ZZ: Do you get input in the other projects?
BB: It was much like a Bad Religion thing in that Ric had a sketch, and it was my job to put the icing on it. The record’s called Troubleizing; I think it’s still in stores, though it sold about two copies. I think, hope you can hear my characteristic stuff on my record....
- Jackson