"he is just saying that dexter holland was in the audience before they started playing."
Yup. Another funny thing; before the show started I asked some guy with strange glasses who was standing at the mixing desk which band was being played over the P.A., so he showed me that Propagandhi debut album. A couple minutes later the same guy entered the stage with a guitar strapped on - Noodles.

Dexter Holland is an asshole

he is just saying that dexter holland was in the audience before they started playing.

To Mr. A
Are you saying that Offspring met their singer in Germany in 1993?
What about the album Ignition released in 1992, and the self titled one released in 1989? Ther was no singer? XD

as much as i like shattered faith, and also think that every album after ixnay on the hombre sucked, i must say: "the kids arent alright" has a great fast and catchy melody, great lyrics and a great video, and it was first.

I vividly remember the NOFX show in a small german club back in 1993, when the Offspring were opening for them.
It was funny when the totally obscure three piece support band opened their set and suddenly a dreadlocked guy out of the audience jumped onto stage and started singing. One year later they released an album called 'Smash' and became rockstars. Stranger Than Fiction...

Ignition is probably their best album while Smash seems to get all the glory ( i suppose rightfully so, reputation wise). Although honestly, i don't know if I'd be listening to Bad Religion if I never heard Americana that fateful day in my friend's basement on like the 7th day napster came out.

In my opinion Shattered Faith is about 1.000.000.000.000 times (or even more) better than the whole Offspring discography (well, but i like Ignition and Smash..;-)

Ha, Bad Brett, the guy that does the bad religion podcasts did an entire episode on Bad Religion cover songs. He included (facetiously) a Bad Religion 'cover' of The Kid's Aren't Alright by playing Shattered Faith. I got a kick out of it.
But, uh, to keep on topic, I love Heroes and Martyrs. Chorus is awesome.

This reminds of the time many BR-fans were upset that other fans (me included) that "Shattered Faith" sounded just like "The Kids aren't alright".
Later, some crazy fan wrote to Jay or something like that and said "Dude, why didn't include Shattered Faith? That song rocks!"
Jay answered: It sounds like an Offspring-song.

The intro/outro of "pretenders" and the chorus to "The lie" aren't similar. That's an understatement. They are THE SAME!!! The guitar chords are the same. The vocal melody is the same. They clearly just rehashed it due to the fact that pretenders was just a b-side anyways. I doubt Graffin would even deny it.

@Nails Basstard. I think it was only his spare that was stolen, don't know if he got it back though.

i thought pretenders lyrics were much better, but i meant shattered woulda fit better in the album, pretenders is a tna song so it of course it wouldnt fit with pob lulz.

Oh, and speaking of Hetson, I heard a while back that his SG had been stolen. Am I crazy, or did he recover it, replace it, or what? I was inspired to buy a cherry SG bass because of him.

Simian... its that "Hey-ya ya-yai, Hey-ya ya-yai..." of Pretenders vs. "Why do you lie? Why do you lie?..." of the Lie.
I think it just shows that tune was bouncing around in Greg's head for a while, but he couldn't quite nail it down. While Pretenders has much more substance, its a bit drawn out while The Lie is almost too cut and dry. The Lie does fit into an album a bit better methinks.

I actually prefer The Lie to Pretenders. Maybe cos I heard it first...

Comments by PartIII from Netherlands on 2007-05-25 @ 13:23
Greg Hetson did use a Fender in the early day, really early days. 1980 I believe, check his myspace, he has some pics of it. Some are with the circle jerks.
I saw a picture of him playing bass with Red Kross when they were still Red Cross.

Just because I think The Lie was filler, doesn't mean I think the song is crap and doesn't deserve to exist :p. Besides, from an album point of view, it helps get you from the defnse to you dont belong, a song i didn't like at all at first but eventually became appereciated for it's different sound.
I still think it's slightly filler for the fact that it also appears at the end of the cd, and I just didn't get get much out of it like I did with every other song on POB.

hey if br wants to put the newbies from the epi family on the new album i'd welcome it..maybe br can show them what real music sounds like.. and i'm not totally hating on them either.. even tho i dont really care for the fall out panics at the screamos. i wont hold that against them that would be stupid. i like all their albums god damnit..even no substance!! after hearing the two new songs i'm even more looking foward to what the rest of the album sounds like. i will always support whatever musical path they take the band down. how can you not when yer rooting fer these guys to leave the musical world with more than just suffer.. they have more to offer than that..

Just to humor you, I checked my ears for excess waxy build-up and listened again, and I still don't think The Lie sounds at all like Pretenders. The chords may be the same, but the pattern is totally different. I can't sing the words of one to the other with any coherence. Comparing these two is saying that Kerosene, Man With A Mission, and Don't Prey On Me are all the same song. Same chords, yes, but hardly the same song.

I love The Lie. i hear the similarity, but Pretenders wasn't all that great, and never really saw the light of day. The Lie is a thousand times better. And in response to Jau, I would prefer to hear something that sounds like Pretenders than something that sounds like the Offspring's "The Kids Aren't Alright".

What? You couldn't find any similarity at all? Have another listen.

Steve Walsh, I agree with you. I think you guys are nuts for dissing The Lie. I love that song. I also listened to it and Pretenders back and forth trying to hear the similarity, but I just didn't hear it. I want some of whatever you guys are smoking.

lol -> Some Guy
You're right though. The Lie is pure filler, I thought that first time I heard it ;)

You thought wrong.

i thought The Lie was one of the best tracks on TPOB.

I didn't known that! Thanx for the notice!

Yeah but that metal bit wasn't in the original.

I fully agree with Jau. And I still maintain that most of the TNA B-sides are much better than a lot of the actual tracks on TNA.
Anechoic nebula, just a small thing, Leon is a cover, so I don't think you can call it a BR song.

www.emule-project.net
but dont download illegal stuff...

For anyone who want to download rares songs of BR's and Greg's songs, you only have to download BItLord program at bitlord.com
Searching in mininova.org
for BAD RELIGION and the discography is on.

Some examples of Bad Religion's diversity:
Waiting For The Fire is a piano ballad
Lose As Directed is a pop song
Dream Of Unity is a stadium rock song, then theres that sort of metal bit on Leon. And not forgetting Into The Unknown...
PS Jau, you're right, the melody of the chorus in The Lie is exactly the same as on the refrain in Pretenders.

In what was probably one of the best interviews I've ever heard (the one with Jay that was I think an hour long), I remember him commenting how shattered faith sounded exactly like the kids aren't right, so I'm guessing that's why they may not have chosen it to be on the album (although, the japan version has it I think).
Still a good song though; I would much have prefered shattered faith to replace The Lie, which sounded too much like Pretenders in the chrous, and overall the song just didn't have much of a point other than slight filler.
I have to agree on Who We Are being of the top b-sides, if not top BR songs (i would put it at the top of the "new" BR sound). At the beginning, of the song, also, it sounds like it could have been placed right after or before Bored And Extremley Dangerous (the "wind up" of the band playing would fit with similar effects done on the song). I might also arrange it in POB and burn myself an ultimate copy to listen to.

Shattered Faith and Who We Are are two of the best bad religion songs for me, i can't believe how they didn't include them on the albums

Greg Hetson did use a Fender in the early day, really early days. 1980 I believe, check his myspace, he has some pics of it. Some are with the circle jerks.

neah, thats certainly not a Fender. I reckon its the classic Gibson Les Paul, swithed to the other element and with the tone knob turned down a bit. As well with the volume (slightly).

to simian: I think we are downloading the exact same things. about two weeks ago i made a cd for in my car with the b sides and greg live. and I put honest goodbye at the end. Pretenders is such a cool song. Greg sounds amazing, and in the verses it doesn't have a wall of guitarsounds, but someone struming a few chords on ( I think) a fender stratocaster. (are there pictures from br guitarists with fenders?) And on the background vocals it's not all greg graffin( like the other songs in those days)just an amazing song!

Simian> hell yeah! me too, Im on a constant b-side craze lately. Especially Leaders and Followers and The Dodo -News from the Front and Markovian Process arent really bsides for me-

Pretenders,Shattered Faith, Leaders and Followers are my Favorite B-sides.
And I don't wanna hear the new "Suffer" in my opinion it was rather weird album for Bad Religion. My Favorites are ATG, Generator and TPOB... Heroes & Martyrs is a good song and NMOH seems to be an excellent album, despite Honest Goodbye :)

Oh, I almost forgot, Leaders & Followers is on there too. That song rocks.

I have been in a serious b-side mood lately. I can't stop listening to a cd I made with News From The Front, The Dodo, Shattered Faith, Markovian Process, Mediocrity, The Surface of Me, Tested, It's Reciprocal, and The Fast Life, and Who We Are. I definitely agree that there are BR albums and BR songs for different moods. Lately the b-sides have really been striking home with me. Over the last few days it's been back in forth in my cd player with Greg's solo acoustic guitar show bootleg from Germany during his cold as the clay tour. The performances of "god song" and "the watchmaker's dial" in that show make me teary-eyed.

it's not like complaining about it'll make it seem better

stop knockin Honest Goodbye!

Honest Goodbye still sucks

Moonshine Whiskey isn't a BR track, it is really just a Graffin track. Jay has said that he had nothing to do with that, that it was a Greg thing.

Moonshine Whiskey? I've never heard of that... where can i get it?

"Moonshine Whiskey" is near of what Greg Graffin sang in "Cold as the clay"
Anybody know what is the tittle of the Special Bonus track on :
Bad Religion - Rare and Unreleased
About Stacy's mom... Lets got and going's on! Im in love witch Stacy's mom!
I think the youngs BR'S times was waiting for M.I.L.F.!

When I hear "Lose as Directed" I kind of get that feeling that they are trying to make fun of Religous revivals, especially because of the Tamborine that constantly hits on the beat (just like a group of parishoners clapping in church). Thinking along those lines makes the lyrics to the song make even more sense ("Close your eyes, 'cause you just don't need 'em anyway"). My personal favorite rarity is "Moonshine Whiskey", though.

Where can I get it?! I want it!!

To: RightLaneEnd

"Lose as directed"
On rare and unreleased
00:02:30
Like pop punk song...
Like Rancid and Ska song's style!
Opinion: this is the song where the people can dance!

Hey nik
They did make a pop song- it is called "lose as directed"

Myah see, Bad Religion is a rock band see, myah, myah.

I would loooooooove more RFH-type experimentation from BR! They totally got it right with that record. It's topical about a time and place, yet still manages to be timeless and universal; both the lyrics and the choice to use Eddie Vedder and Johnette drive this home. There's way more going on there than just "is this song going to be fast or slow, and which new Epitaph/Anti- artist can we squeeze in?"

Well said, PartIII.
Now I feel stranger than fiction, so it's on the cd player xD

I always said, for every mood is a different Bad Religion album. Every album has a distinct feel, and thats the power of BR.

In my opinion only Suffer and No Control and Against the Grain sounds similar. But since Generator was released every album is different. They had a progression until they released No Substante and New America, their worst (but not bad at all) records. And when Brooks came in with TPOF, he saved Bad Religion. And I'm sure NMOH will be even better than the previous, and i love TESF.
See ya in Madrid.

Yes there are very few bad Bad Religion songs. If people think they sound the same they should listen to Recipe For Hate, that's clearly a huge progression from the earlier stuff like Suffer.

I agree Nik i love every song they do, i just hope BR keep going and going.

This is an interessting discussion. It seems like a lot of you think that Bad Religion's music changed with TESF, and that the older songs were a bit the same. I disagree. I think with the POB and TESF they got a bit back to basic (and I remember something that BR said it was some sort of sequal to STF)So I think those atlantic records before the POB are their most experimental. When I tried to play songs from the gray race or the new america on my guitar, I found out that some of those songs have a more complex structure. ( spirit shine, a world without melody, parallel, empty causes, victory, the voracious march..)

Really hope the new album is up to the legend of BR. No othere band around gets my excitement when releasing a new album - for me a new BR album is like a big event - reminiscent of the expectation of waiting for each new Clash release. What other band 25 years in to their career have maintained a genuine cutting edge to their music?

You didn't like To Another Abyss? That's an awesome song.
I don't know what it is about Bad Religion, but I like every single song they make. They could make a pop album and I'd love it. I loved New America (the title track is one of my favourite BR songs) and No Substance was great too. Honest Goodbye isn't the best song, but I still love it!
IMO, BR can't make crap, as long as they keep making, I'll keep listening and I'll keep loving.

Listening to Heroes and Martyrs I came to think that it can't really be compared to older Bad Religion that directly. To TESF, sure, and as TESF is a great album it should be the reference when thinking how good or bad the the New Maps of Hell will be.
I first started to compare Honest Goodbye and Heroes & Martyrs with the older Bad Religion which I love the best but soon realised that it was pointless as the band has changed so much. It's been 10 - 15 years since they released their best albums, and they're still doing good rock music. I salute them for that.
TESF is a great album, it's as good as it can be considering that the band as been around for so long and that they are getting older. Honest Goodbye and Heroes & Martyrs both sound as logical sequel to TESF and if the rest of New Maps of Hell will prove to be as solid quality, we can only be happy about it.

that's right honest goodbye sucks ass

I can
Bad Religion

Note to Anasthesia from the message boards (I don't have an account): "George Davis" is a reference to the armed robber. Graffin says that he is a big fan of Sham 69, who have a song called "George Davis is Innocent". Read some more info about the man on Wikipedia, it's quite interesting.

I can't understand why people dislike "Honest Goodbye". Oh well, to each their own.

I can't believe I share a common interest with some of you people.
Honest Goodbye is amazing...READ THE BOOK!

Beyond Electric Dreams, slow? Well we don't have the same album...

I dont get you guys... I think TESF is easily their best album musically and lyrically. It might not be as hard or fast as the old ones, but its plenty fast to keep my attention. Really the only song i didnt like was To Another Abyss. It has some awesome fast songs like Atheist Peace, The Quickening, and Sinister Rouge (Which in my opinion are some of there better fast songs) But a reason why I like it so much is that its not just a bunch of one-minute-fast-songs, but is more diverse. I dont think every song has to be fast to be good, in fact i think one of the slowest songs on the album, Beyond Electric Dreams, might be one of the best songs on the album. People are always saying "their songs all sound the same" well i think BRs answer to that was TESF.

the vocals on heroes and martyrs are fine. But some of you are using a "3d stereo" effect or whatever on your pc or stereo. Just put it on your walkman/discman and it will sound better

Sounds really good. I agree though that the vocals need to be brought in more. Much better than that...other song...ick...

badboy, I'm not remotely interested in their personal lives, I just recognize that these guys have other things going on for them besides BR. Who wants another 'Suffer?' The one we have already is perfect. In my opinion, TPOB revels in the freshness of the songwriter reunion and the addition of Brooks. TESF sounds like they sat down and tried to recreate that out of thin air, and to me has an inorganic feel to the energy. It's a reactionary album and falls flat, which is fairly typical sophomore trait. It's not the end of the world, it doesn't necessarily mean that NMOH will be bad ('Honest Goodbye' does, though. lol!). I love the band, I want them to make awesome records that are challenging and musically vibrant. I also think they've reduced BR down to a formula because it's not the most important thing in their lives and there are audience expectations. I don't mean this as criticism, it's just the state of their music.
And Dalton, you're totally right about STF.

Sounds good to me, even though I think that the vocals could be a bit louder. I have not heard the radio rips or any other version of this song so I don't know how they sound...
I hope that the rest of the tracks will be mixed with louder vocals, it's the same problem with Stranger Than Fiction also: in some songs you can't hear the lyrics clearly. You get used to it though...

This song rocks harder than anything on TESF imho... except maybe Atheist Peace. Thumbs up.

watcho, you are way too obsessed with other people's personal life. TESF is a great record. Songs like Sinister Rouge, Beyond Electric Dreams and Boot Stamping are the ones that make me laugh when people say, BR makes the same album over and over again. To the ones who say they cant make good classic punk rock songs anymore i throw Social Suicide, Atheist Peace and All There Is in their face. And to the people who claim BR cant make songs that non hardcore fans can like i stick Los Angels Is Burning, Let Them Eat War, Gods Love and Live Again ("CNN Approved" they have to put that interview someday on a dvd, if they release another one) up their butt. To me, its all fine, as long as their albums stay that diverse and interesting. If you want a Suffer album, go to your next local store and buy it, again.

Jay: "Those bands used to be considered punk, hell even Devo was punk, now I don't know what punk is, I don't care for most of it. It all sounds the same, like us. We sound the same, for 17 years. Haha"
thats the thing, they are doing albums now that hold various songs. not just all in the same vibe like No Control, Suffer etc. And Im goddamn glad that they do that, its musically also much more interesting.
and about them not being fit for punk rock as they want to spend time with their families... They goddamn deserve that, what other worthy bands has produced over 200 songs that are still rocking as hell, with lyrics that still astonish you? I cant name one.

I suppose it would be pointless to say something like listen to the albums and songs you like and don't listen to the ones you don't like...

No all we have nowadays is a once great band that's run its course

The problem with TESF isn't that it "sucks" per se, it's that the album just doesn't hold up very well with time and it's only been, what, 3 years? I find TESF to be rather tedious to get through, the sparks from TPOB died with the closing notes of 'Bored and Extremely Dangerous.' Look at the facts: between family and the label, BR is only one piece of the picture for Brett, and he's open about that regarding touring, etc. Graffin's in the same boat, but he's the singer so he can't divide his time quite the same way, which results in missed sound checks and a very limited memory of the BR songbook. What we've got is a songwriting team that is comfortable in life and distracted in focus. That's not bad for them personally, they deserve the fruits they've earned. It just doesn't make for good punk rock. What we get are microcosmic themes, phoned-in vocals, and temporal punk-o-rama guest credits. TESF suffers for these reasons. So far, NMOH is headed down the same path.

I wouldn't precisely cite Heaven is Falling as an example of a song with a "really good knockout melody", and this coming from a Brett fanboi.

Wow, I quite like this.
They should just name it "Sinister Rouge Part II"
It sounds so much like a sequel to SR, music-wise.
*thumbs up*

TESF kicks ass my friends... and TPOB is even better... both records are awesome, hope that NMOH is as good as them and completes that "trilogy" hehe
cheers from Argentina

TPOB and TESF are two master pieces but new maps of hell is going to be better than the last album...the background vocals are just excellent

I like sinister rouge,atheist peace, all there is, La is burning, let them eat war, tesf and live again.

The Empire Strikes First was not awful but it wasn't amazing either. It was quite good. The songs on it ranged from awesome to terrible, unfortunately.

Sorry folks but TESF was Awful.
Give me No Control or Generator anyday!

this is killing me, its still soooo far away from being released, july 10th i mean COME OOOOOON...

It has happened for the past few albums. You can't judge a 16 track album on two songs

True, people were moaning too when The Empire Strikes First was going to be released. Turning out to be a fucking awesome album, a honerful followup of The Process of Belief

It's going to be hilarious when weeks after the album is released (months even), when doubters suddenly change their mind and go "oh i just had to digest the album etc etc" after the pre-release depression emo lulz quotes im finding about how BR has lost their ability to make kick ass music.
irony: the lost art of critical thinking.

Pffft I don't no why I believed that

"Did anyone else get the leak of the album? I can't be the only one....."
What leak?

"I hope the album proves otherwise but it seems that BR are no longer capable of writing really good knockout melodies (...) anymore."
With each passing day it's getting more ridiculous in this comment section.
*shakes head in disbelief*

Did anyone else get the leak of the album? I can't be the only one.....

awesome song.

I hope the album proves otherwise but it seems that BR are no longer capable of writing really good knockout melodies such as Heaven Is Falling,American Jesus, Modern Man or Fertile Crescent anymore. The level has dropped.

Sounds the same, though I can see how people would think it would sound different... See, when played just on the Epitaph site, there are no added bass effects, or any effects for that matter if it were to be played in the same music player as the leaked version (if your comparing them). Anyways, I think that made sense. But yeah, I don't notice any difference between the two.

Sounds the same as the one posted on the other site a few days ago to me.

I believe it does sound a it better production-wise compared to the leaked one we had up here. Sounds like vocals are clearer as JG said and the other instruments aren't as loud anymore. Just what it sounds like to me.

This is Horrible!!!!!!!!!

I agree Eric.
It just doesn't sound complete without "Waaaayside!" at the end. :(
I still love the studio version though.

anyone else feel that the spanish radio rip of heroes and martyrs from last month was a little bitter, i dont know why but i liked that version better.

Vocals seem clearer on this than on the previously leaked one. Is it a different mix?

It seems to be the same mp3 sent to bad-religion.net. Is this the final release?

Very nice ;D

And on MySpace.