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Politically Incorrect (June 29, 2000)
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| Category: | Interview - Television | Publish date: | 6/29/2000 |
| Source: | Politically Incorrect (June 29, 2000) (United States) | With: | Greg Graffin |
| Synopsis: | Greg Graffin appears in the late-night political talk show "Politically Incorrect" hosted by Bill Maher. The main theme of the night is feminism. Greg barely gets the chance to comment. | ||
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Transcript (4029 words )
Languages: English
Guests on this program were:
Julie Brown
Marina Sirtis
Christina Hoff Sommers
Greg Graffin
Bill's Opening
Bill: Oh, boy, what a happy group. I know why you're happy today. We're rid of Elian Gonzalez. I think, I don't know. We are taping a little too early, but the Supreme Court was about to say that they're not gonna say and that he could go home. And I think that's a good thing, because this kid is so Americanized at this point, and going home -- they put it in terms to him that he could understand, they said, "You've been voted back to the island."
[ Laughter ]
Because of the "
[ Applause ]
No, no, no, please. I hate that sympathy applause. I hate that "I think I get it." "Survivor" the big -- it's on tonight.
[ Applause ]
Yeah, See. They don't even watch that. Okay. But it's a big hit. I mean, everyone is cashing in on this. I tell you, the other night I was flipping through the channels and on the Playboy channel, there was a guy eating a bunny.
[ Laughter and applause ]
All right, what else is going on? George Bush, you know the little Bush kid? You know that little Bush kid, running for president, yeah. He's on a whirlwind tour this week "
this must be difficult for him -- of minority groups. Monday he was speaking to Hispanics in Washington. Tuesday he was with Blacks in Detroit, his home turf.
[ Laughter ]
And today, he was in Ohio with the disabled. Luckily, he's heading for a weekend where he can decompress playing golf at an all-white country club. So luckily "
He's not --
[ Applause ]
Okay. Please. Not really funny, but pointed. And finally, speaking of all Whites, John Rocker is "
[ Laughter ]
Yeah, people like him, okay. He is heading back to New York tomorrow. He will be at Shea Stadium. And of course, you know, in his big interview that caused all the controversy, he complained about riding the number 7 subway train in New York City 'cause there was foreigners and gays. Well, he said he's gonna do it again.
That's what he's gonna do tomorrow, he's gonna ride the subway train. You know what I say? Big deal. If you want to court death in New York, how 'bout he goes to Central Park in a tube top and short-shorts.
[ Laughter and applause ]
Panel Discussion
Let's meet our panel "
the band is Bad Religion, the cd is "The New American."
He is Greg Graffin, ladies and gentlemen. Yeah. Greg!
[ Cheers and applause ]
Hi, how you doing? There you are.
Bad Religion, and what religion isn't bad? The Brady fellow of the American Enterprise Institute. Her new book is "The War Against Boys, How Misguided Feminism Is Harming Our Young Men." Christina Hoff Sommers, ladies and gentlemen.
[ Cheers and applause ]
Hey. Thank you for getting here.
She's the fine actress known all over the galaxy as "Star Trek's" counselor, Deanna Troy, Marina Sirtis, ladies and gentlemen.
[ Cheers and applause ]
How are you? Thanks for coming by.
A very funny actress and host of the new Comedy Central show, "Strip Mall," oh, she is funny " Julie Brown, right over here.
[ Cheers and applause ]
Julie: How are you?
Bill: Give me a kiss. It's been years.
Julie: Oh.
Bill: Come on. Don't play with me. All right. I love this book. Where are you? Who wrote it? Come on.
Christina: I did.
Bill: Thank you. Show of hands. "The War Against Boys." And I'll tell you why, because I've been saying for a long time on this show that, you know, the male agenda is always demonized, and the female agenda is lionized and romanticized. And this book is saying that, what we've been hearing, that girls are getting the short shrift, is baloney. You say it's the boys. And I could quote you.
[ Laughter ]
Yeah, I have it right here. You "
Christina: The boys are significantly behind girls in most of the ways that count, just "
Bill: I hope so.
Christina: One statistic--
Bill: I'm kidding. I'm kidding.
[ Applause ]
All right, thank you. Thank you. Cheap sex joke -- go on.
Christina: For example, the average 11th grade boy writes like an 8th grade girl. The reading gap is huge. The college gap -- Our colleges are now 55% female, 45% male.
Bill: So where does this come from -- this idea that it's the girls who are in trouble, that somehow they're suffering from --
Christina: That girls are shortchanged, diminished, silenced "
Bill: Right.
Christina: For about ten years we've had some very well-organized women's groups who have argued that girls are shortchanged and silenced, and what I tried to
do in "The War Against Boys" is to get the best scholarship I could, to go to the Department of Education, the National Center for Education Statistics, and see how children are really faring. And these women's groups just got it backwards.
Marina: Well, maybe the girls are doing better because they're not shackled anymore. And maybe the girls are doing better because they're not being picked on by the boys. And maybe the girls are doing better because they're allowed to do better now. Maybe girls are just smarter than boys. Hello? You know?
[ Cheers and applause ]
Julie: No, no, no. Now, that isn't fair. I have a little boy, and he's brilliant.
Marina: Oh, I'm sure he is, Julie.
Julie: He is brilliant.
Marina: I'm sure.
Julie: I'll fight you. Okay?
Marina: Come on.
[ Cheers ]
Bill: Ooh, celebrity chick fight. I love it.
Julie: It's a slap fest.
Christina: Are you part of the philosophy that a friend of mine calls "Women Are From Venus, Men Are From Hell"?
Marina: No, I'm not. I'm actually married. I'm happily married and I love my husband very dearly.
Greg: he's just dumber than you.
Marina: No, he's not.
[ Laughter and applause ]
Well, I just think that you can probably find research to support any argument that you come up with these days.
Greg: Especially in social science.
Marina: Exactly.
Greg: Which is exactly what we're talking about here.
Julie: Don't you think you used to expect less from girls in the past, but now it's sort of equal?
Christina: No, they did. It's true that in the past, girls were held back arbitrarily. And I think we needed a corrective. And I'm not against everything that some of the
women's groups did but they went too far.
Marina: Why have they gone too far?
Christina: They're demonizing boys.
Marina: Maybe it's evolution. Maybe women are supposed to be in charge one day.
Christina: Well, maybe you think so.
[ Cheers ]
Marina: Hey. You know? Maybe that "
Bill: Oh, right, like you're in charge now.
[ Laughter ]
Julie: We're not following you.
Bill: Yeah, right. Saddam Hussein, good to see you here in the audience.
Marina: Maybe that's what's gonna happen. Maybe that's what's gonna happen. It's better trying to correct it maybe this is the way evolution is going to go and it's gonna be the time of the woman. And girls are -- and women will -- hey, we might have a woman President one day.
[ Cheers and applause ]
Julie: But you know, excuse me. If men turn into big wusses, we won't want to have sex with them, will we?
Marina: Speak for yourself.
Bill: That is so true.
Julie: Isn't that true? I mean, it's true. If you can absolutely control a guy, do you want him?
Marina: It's not about control. It's about -- It's not about control.
Christina: It is about control, and it's about the feminization of little boys. I was able to show they're trying to stop the competitive nature of little boys. Their natural rambunctioness is being --
Marina: Excuse me, I'm the most competitive person you will ever meet and I'm a girl, okay? I watch sports more than my husband. I am totally, if you could say "
like, my husband keeps saying, "You should have been a guy," 'cause I am way more competitive than him.
[ Laughter ]
I watch sports way more than he does.
Julie: Come on, let's arm wrestle. Let's go.
Marina: Okay, let's go.
[ Cheers ]
Bill: And I know exactly what your marriage is, because there's a certain "
Marina: What you do you mean you know exactly what my marriage is? You've never met my husband.
Bill: No, I haven't, I don't. But I do know, having lived all the years I've lived, and we're all mature people here "
Julie: Speak for yourself, Bill.
Bill: We all know there's a certain percentage of marriages "
Marina: You're gonna really upset my husband "
Bill: I've known you a long time, dear.
Julie: Okay.
[ Laughter ]
Bill: There's a certain percentage of people who get together because the girl is the guy and the guy is the girl.
Marina: No, that's so not true.
Julie: That's just what you said.
Bill: It is just what you said.
Marina: It is not what I said. I said that he says I should have been the guy because I like sports. He does sports. He surfs, he snowboards. He mountain bikes. He's a real guy.
Bill: But you obviously wear the strap-on in the family.
[ Laughter and applause ]
Marina: No, I do not. No, I do not.
Bill: Okay. All right. But I mean "
Marina: You see, that's -- you're talking now in stereotypes. You're saying girls shouldn't be the way that I am.
Bill: I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying whatever works.
Marina: And he's a little [ bleep ], but he's not. He's not.
Bill: No, he's a big [ bleep ].
Marina: Not at all. Not at all. I'm gonna bring in that "
Bill: But what's wrong with that? What's wrong -- what's wrong with the woman being the strong dominant one and the male -- if that's what he is -- it's just about people meshing. That's all it's about. It doesn't matter who is the Alpha and who's the Beta. You're the Alpha, he's the Beta.
Marina: It's -- you know what? It's an equilibrium in my house. We are equals. But we're getting off the subject here, 'cause it's not about my family life.
Christina: Does it concern you at all that boys -- the reading scores of boys are so far below the girls, that they care less about school, that they're sort of the second-class citizens?
Marina: It comes from the home probably. I would say that it comes from the home.
Christina: Fatherlessness.
Marina: Maybe fatherlessness, or maybe coming from a kind of macho home where "
Christina: No macho homes.
Julie: I don't know how you crush little boys' spirits. I wish I could crush my son's spirit a little.
Marina: Exactly.
Julie: He's so aggressive. I mean, he'll go through a -- in a department store, see the mannequin and grab the boobs. He's like "
[ Laughter ]
There is no crushing him at all.
Bill: How old is this kid?
Julie: 6.
Bill: He's 6 and he's grabbing department store breasts?
Julie: Yes. Yes.
[ Laughter ]
Bill: I'll take him out with me one day. I'll straighten him right out. We've gotta take a commercial. We'll be right back.
[ Cheers and applause ]
-"
[ Applause ]
Bill: All right. We were talking about this provocative book "The War On Boys." And I think we did get a little off the subject, 'cause we were talking more about girls.
And this is more about the problem that boys have. Let me just quote a few lines from the book and it will explain it. You say "there's a movement to render boys less competitive, more emotionally expressive, more nurturing -- in short, more like girls."
And I would agree with that. I think there's a movement in this country of feminization "
And I would agree with that. I think there's a movement in this country of feminization "
that we are not okay the way we are because of the way we are. We need to be more like girls. And you say it may be that American boys don't need to be more emotional and that girls do need to be less sentimental and less self-absorbed.
Christina: Yes. I think that there's so much self-absorption and narcissism. And in our schools they should be focused more on opening up the children intellectually, creatively and instead there's all of this psychobabble. And the boys don't like it. There's efforts to feminize the boys. Just one quick example "
a toy company decided, because they were pressured to manufacture toys that would make them more nurturing, so they had a doll house/fort that they brought the
children in to play with.
Bill: Which is a ridiculous concept to begin with.
Christina: And the girls played constructively with the house and played with the dolls and put them in the baby
carriage.
Bill: And the boys wrecked it.
Christina: The boys came in and catapulted the baby carriage from the roof.
Julie: All right.
All right!
[ Cheers and applause ]
Christina: I was debating Gloria Allred because she was suing the boy scouts for excluding girls. She called the boy scouts "gender apartheid." And I told her this story, and she said "
Bill: The boy scouts.
Christina: Right, gender apartheid. I'm telling you, Bill, the sexual politics now is so ferocious and most parents don't know what their sons are facing.
Julie: Does she want the girls to be able to become boy scouts?
Christina: I think she'd like to see the girls catapulting the baby carriage from the roof.
Bill: I think some of them would just like us to become girls, that it would be a better world if we all just "
Marina: Wait a second.
Christina: Gloria Steinem says it all the time. She says we should "
Bill: What, what?
Marina: But you're making it sound like guys were okay the way they were.
Bill: We are okay the way "
Marina: No, you're not!
[ Laughter ]
Bill: And that is our fundamental disagreement.
Marina: You know, you're not okay. It wasn't okay the way it was. I mean, you know "
Julie: It was okay in the past, but now "
Marina: Guys, you know -- there are wife-beaters, there's gonna be one guy who got hit by his wife who goes, "Well, you know, women hit their husbands, too." You know, but men are violent "
Greg: If you don't think that women abuse men, then you just have a different definition of what abuse men.
Marina: Physically they do not abuse men.
Bill: They abuse in their own way.
Marina: You know, it's different.
Bill: It is different.
Greg: It is different, but it's just as painful. That's the difference.
Marina: It isn't just as painful.
Greg: I disagree.
[ Applause ]
Otherwise -- I've never seen "
Marina: I've never seen a guy go to the hospital because he had his feelings hurt. Okay?
Bill: Did you ever have a case of blue balls?
[ Laughter and applause ]
Christina: I honestly think that we've had about 20 years of anti-male propaganda. I checked into some of these feminist statistics, the Ms. Information, I call it because it is so unfair "
depicting the average male as a proto-batterer.
Bill: Yeah.
Greg: The first thing that pops into your head is about a guy bashing his wife.
Marina: Because they do.
Greg: They do, but most of them don't.
Christina: Most men don't.
Greg: A lot of women marry rich guys just to take his fortune. Do you want to use that as an example of what women do?
Marina: Of what?
Bill: Right.
Marina: Oh, that's ridiculous. That's ridiculous.
Bill: But you are sort of blaming us all for what the worst of us do. And if we blamed all women for what the worst of them do "
Marina: But you know what? Guys do that. Guys do do that. Guys do do that. The way women were was always put down by guys. And because we were sensitive, and because we were nurturing and because we didn't resort to violence, we were second-class citizens.
Christina: But "were" is the important word here.
Marina: And you know what? Yeah, hey, it's good that it doesn't happen anymore.
Christina: You still seem angry.
Marina: I am angry because you're making out like men were so great before and women had such a great time, and you want us to go back to that.
Greg: But it wasn't great before.
Bill: Who was it you said that kept women down?
Marina: Men.
Bill: Oh, really?
Marina: Oh, yeah.
Bill: You said someday there'll be a woman president.
Marina: Hopefully.
Bill: Women are the majority of the voters. They do not vote for women. So it is not we who are keeping you from the White House.
[ Cheers and applause ]
It's true. That's true.
Marina: You know, I "
Bill: Women don't "
Marina: I do agree with you.
Bill: Women don't vote for women.
Marina: Don't you think that is kind of conditioning? Don't you think that that's conditioning?
Christina: That's insulting. That we're conditioned by patriarchal oppression?
Marina: No.
Julie: If there was a woman that you thought was great, you'd vote for her, wouldn't you? Wouldn't you?
Marina: Yeah, but they don't go into politics.
Greg: I'm voting for Hillary Clinton.
Marina: Good for you.
Greg: 'Cause I'm a New York state resident.
Marina: Good for you. If I lived there, I would vote for her, too.
[ Laughter ]
Julie: I think I'd vote for Hillary if I could. I do. I like Hillary. I mean, she's kind of insane for sure.
[ Laughter ]
Marina: But it's a boy's club, Julie.
Julie: She really wants the job so bad, I think she'd do a pretty good job if she was there. I do. I do. She's hung in there so much. It must mean a lot to her.
[ Laughter ]
She's put up with everything. As a woman, I would support her if I could vote for her.
Marina: I have to ask you something. What do you foresee as the conclusion if things continue the way they are?
Christina: Oh, if things continue, I really feel we will be the first society in history where we sort of make men second-class citizens. Now, I didn't think it was good that women were second-class citizens. What I believe in as an equity feminist is fairness for men and women. But if you take an objective look at what's going on in our schools, I don't think any fair-minded person could do anything but conclude that the boys are mistreated, held back, their needs are not addressed. The girls are the sort of the center of attention. We have daughter's day. We have all sorts of programs.
Bill: But we are ahead in school shootings.
[ Laughter ]
We have to take a commercial. We'll be right back.
[ Applause ]
-"
Announcer: Join us tomorrow when our guests will be comedy legend Michael McKean, actress Shannon Elizabeth, author Molly Jong-Fast, and from the young
American foundation, Melissa Moskal.
[ Applause ]
Bill: All right. We were talking about boys and girls and such. Let me twist this a little. There was an article in the paper this week about a South Carolina minister -- don't write me and say this is anti-religion. I am anti-religion, but this another story.
[ Laughter ]
He had sex with a 14-year-old Sunday school student of his. Okay? But a girl. So there's that.
[ Laughter ]
He was sentenced to 12 years in prison, which was reduced by the judge in half when he found out that the girl was 6' tall and weighed 200 pounds.
Julie: That is such a horrifying story.
Bill: Because?
Julie: Because it's like, if the girl's skinny, if she's Christina Aguilera, then you should be punished. But since she's a fat chick, it's not as bad. It's horrifying.
Marina: The judge should be recalled, I mean, bottom line. It's horrifying.I agree with Julie, It's horrifying. A 14-year-old girl, doesn't matter what size she is, does
not know what is what and she should not be taken advantage of by her minister.
Bill: Well, of course.
Greg: The minister -- who reduced the sentence?
Bill: The judge, when he found out that the girl "
Greg: It's probably because the judge was afraid of going to hell if he didn't do something -- you know, good deed, so "
Marina: Do Baptists go to hell?
Greg: I don't know, I don't think so.
Bill: I mean, the argument has always been when someone is in court on such a case, "Your honor, she looked 18, she looked older." But I mean, isn't this a
case where the girl did look old -- I mean, if she's 6' tall and 200 pounds, she "
Marina: She was in Sunday school.
Julie: Yeah, but he knew when he made the judgment that she was 14. He knew that.
Greg: Hey, there are a lot of girls who are 14 and look a lot older, but I've never gotten into any trouble.
[ Laughter ]
Julie: So it can happen.
Greg: And I'm not a minister.
Marina: Having been "
Bill: Always get two forms of I.D.
Marina: Having been a 14-year-old girl, as I imagine we all have been 14-year-old girls. I know back in the dark ages "
Bill: I know I have.
Marina: But I mean, when I think of what I was like when I was 14, I could have "
okay, I was not as good as I could have been, but guys "
Julie: Sexually?
Marina: You know, that's none of your business, actually, Julie.
Julie: I didn't know what you meant. Good as in good?
Bill: Well, you told us about your marriage, let's hear about your childhood.
Marina: You passed judgment on my marriage.
Bill: I didn't. I didn't.
Marina: Well -- let's not go there.
Bill: Okay.
Marina: But I just think when someone in authority like that, should just -- it doesn't matter if she looked 18. She was in Sunday school. You're not likely to be in Sunday school when you're 18 years old, right?
Bill: Yes.
Marina: Am I right?
Bill: You are so right.
Greg: A judge shouldn't be making a decision based on what the girl looked like. He should make the decision based on whether or not the minister was wrong in his "
Christina: Don't other things count a little bit -- if he coerced her and it was an aggressive assault, and of course, I can understand, 12 years in jail "
But if it was just some human failing and they had a love affair, of course it's a terrible thing, and he should lose his job and serve some time. 12 years?
Bill: 14 is a little young "
Christina: But 12 years in prison?
Marina: It's statutory rape. Whichever way you cut it, it's statutory rape and they should throw the book at him.
Christina: There's a human side.
Julie: You mean it's kind of okay?
Christina: It's not kind of okay, but I think 12 years in prison to be marked as a sex predator when "
Marina: But he was.
Bill: Yeah, he's a minister. It's Sunday school.
Christina: I'm not forgiving it. I'm just saying it was a harsh sentence.
Bill: I would fry him like battered shrimp. We've gotta take a break. We'll be back.
[ Applause ]
-"
[ Cheers and applause ]
Bill: All right, here's the new album, Bad Religion and the book. I would say, listen to this while you're reading this.
[ Laughter ]
Tomorrow, Michael McKean, Shannon Elizabeth, Molly Jong-Fast, and Melissa Moskal.
-"
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