ya, the woooo woah is too much...the rest rocks. i love it. Bad Religion really can not do wrong. Television is maybe forgivable, but the rest....sheesh!
thanks for the best music ever made.

This song is amazing. His voice is mesmerizing && i can honestly listen to it all day without getting sick of it. I cant wait for the new CD..
Id like to get a tattoo based on the cover to the CD && the line "God it feels like an honest goodbye" fits in perfectly with the tattoos meaning.
i love it!

I actually see this song getting some major air time on the radio. It's properly formatted for the masses.
At first, I didn't like it but now, it's starting to grow on me. Can't wait for the new album.

Hear another track? Cool. :) Now if only the liner notes would go up.

hey, according to the epitaph newsletter, the song will be released as a single and download on may 22nd. and on june 5th, we will be able to hear another track of the album ("Requiem for Dissent")on the warped tour compilation. http://www.punknews.org/article/23512

Ok, opps, not the entire chorus, but its pretty damn long of just hearing "whoa ohhh ohhh".

Not to be a jerk, and I love the song, can't wait for the album, but my miniscule critique is that the verse is beautifully crafted and interesting but leads to a chorus of "whoa ohhh ohhh ohhh". It just seems inadequate and dare I even say gimicky. I know from previous albums that oozing ahhhs is a trademark of BR and I love it but for the entire chorus, ewww.

"Hey Brett, does it annoy you when you look at a painting and the artist isn't standing right there next to the canvas explaining it to you?"
i dunno about brett but i wouldnt mind that.. but only after i couldnt find the sail boat..cos its like really really hard..
i heart brett

This one's about a convicted death row killer with a poppy melodic sound to it...cool :)

I agree with the sentiment that the way one person processes the lyrics, correct words or not, can drive a more personal meaning out of it. That being said, even If one knows all the correct lyrics, it may still hold more pertinence if the sterile, true meaning of the writer is not revealed. If I take the words and correlate them to my own life I appreciate them more rather than just singing along to a song about a book. I know its not that cut and dry, but my point is that how music effects you personally may be more important than the literal meaning of the writer.

I would like to diffuse my previous post about Mr.Brett explaining everything, cuz I don't really mean it like that. The sentiment is still true for me to an extent, but I understand not everyone feels the same way and I could probably find a way to express that in a manner that doesn't make me sound like a dickhead.

Comments by meanie 2007-04-25 @ 23:21 (on Honest Goodbye Post)
Now get up and give in;
I?ll crack your knuckles again.
Supplicate and survive this transubstantiation
And get so mean.
I want to know what it means!
Did you love? You know I did.
Did you court? Court? Get it right!
Did you feel? always on the edge?(Did you ..? cause it?s such a fright?
Did you know?
Oh to be forgiven (Did you try?) but it wouldn?t be right.
Hey, I started it. *buffs nails* I mostly prefer my lyrics to the actual lyrics because they mean more to ME. I'm not the literary scholar that some of you have shown yourselves to be. I would never say my preferred lyrics are correct or become disrepectful, but I'd maybe offer a story of how they fit a theory. I'd also prefer Greg wrote them. Crazy, I know. *silent scream* Obviously, as "meanie," I'd be the angry soul cracking knuckles but I don't like to be even remotely associated with anyone repsonsible for heinous crimes so I'll shut it now.

Okay, look. I know I'm old, but every time I hear the vocals on the chorus, it sounds more and more like 1974 ELO to me.
This bit:
"(Did you lie?) Causing such a fright
(Did you love?) Oh to be forgiven
(Did you try?) But it wouldn?t be right"
Has A New World Record written all over it..

it appears to be happy hour at richard and judy's book club launch party
for the record, i don't like honest goodbye all that much, it hasn't got me hyped about this new album, though I am sure it will take it's place as the "Broken" or "Boot Stomping..." token throwaway track.
hope to see BR in uk this summer.

Harking back to earlier in the thread, I'd just like to thank Brett for helping us interpret the song. It was good fun. And, yeah, I think "Blood Meridian's" excellent too. Perhaps it could be adapted to song for the next album? :)
@Dogbert: Yeah, I've read "The Three Versions of Judas". I'm probably most fond of "The Garden of Forking Paths"; I've read that far too many times lol. Or, "Tlon, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius" - I found that very interesting. Although, I kind of get frustrated with Borges, primarily due to his sources - nothing can be taken at face value. Not only does he sometimes just make them up, but other times he'll refer to real people, real books, but completely alter their contents. I guess it'd help if I was better read to get the "satires"/"parodies"/etc first time. But, I'm not lol. So it all takes quite a lot of effort. However, it's unbelievably rewarding once it all falls into place. And I guess that's one of the joys of reading him.

I would think most people who go on this site would know who Brett is as well. That's why I thought he can't be too bright for not realising who posted the lyrics.

Sorry if that came off as arrogant, that wasn't my intention. I was just honestly puzzled.
BTW, Jay's response had me in fits. Best rebuttal ever. You rock.

Well, I can only speak for myself, but I don't put up lyrics from Generic Fan #45238. Plus, I'm positive that, if they post on this site, they'll know Brett, even if his surname is excluded. After all, I don't write Jay Bentley. So... in combination, I think it's rather obvious the person in question is Mr Brett. And even when unaware of this, if you'd read the comments at all, you'd have noticed it.

God my grammar's terrible at this time of day. Imeant to start with "Maybe if you'd said much thanks to Brett Gurewitz"

maybe if you'd thanks brett gurewitz in the news daniel0418 wouldn't have got confused and posted those lyrics. But still he can't be too bright, must've been shoving things in his ear or something.

"would wanted"?
Maybe i have to go to bed oO

I know Jay... I just would wanted to make some fun about it... sorry
That's because your reply wasfunny, so... :P

Comments by Rauen from Brazil on 2007-04-29 @ 04:20
Yay! Let's see Jay The Tough Guy kicking someone's ass!
best reply ever! thanks for the laugh!
LAWL!!12!2sejdbja (smashing keyboad) *head explodes*

jesus, i don't want to "kick anyones' ass"... i just didn't get why they would post without reading the thread. i forget sometimes that not everyone knows brett and i post here... sorry.

Yay! Let's see Jay The Tough Guy kicking someone's ass!
best reply ever! thanks for the laugh!

haha, you tell um Jay!

daniel0418 wrote: im sorry but ima have to call out the poster on this one... those lyrics are wrong... the first line of the back up vocals is (did you love) you know i did (did you court) I couldnt get it right... after that im not so sure but me n some friends listened a hundred times and thats for sure it did you love and did you court"

dude, you need to read who posted those lyrics. pretty sure he would know... and i can assure you i don't remember singing "did you court"...

I'm sorry i stand corrected it is (did you Laugh) and (did you court) the first part you guys have right but the second one is did you COURT

im sorry but ima have to call out the poster on this one... those lyrics are wrong... the first line of the back up vocals is (did you love) you know i did (did you court) I couldnt get it right... after that im not so sure but me n some friends listened a hundred times and thats for sure it did you love and did you court

Whew! It's been so very, very long since we've had the opportunity for Mr.Brett to tell everyone exactly how to interpret BR songs. The album is still 2 months away, but thankfully we can save ourselves the hassle of trying to "derive meaning" out of this art we've all come to love so much. Hey Brett, does it annoy you when you look at a painting and the artist isn't standing right there next to the canvas explaining it to you?

Why I'm the only who have the feeling of this song's being about Bush?
Why they don't talk about bush anymore?

As an Argentine myself, I'm glad and very proud of your digging Borges, AlMac. Have you read "The Three Versions of Judas"? I'm sure Brett would love that one. Basically, it's a very witty reinterpretation of Catholicism through the figure of Judas.

Thanks so much for participating in our discussions, Brett. It's one extra incentive to try interpretating the songs to the fullest extend.

As I said, I've always assumed it was about a healthy, good conscience person being able to kill people and stuff, but as soon as In Cold Blood was mentioned, it all made sense.

Ahh, I would have never guessed it. I have never read the book. But I guess it's a good thing to know now what the song is referring to. Thanks Brett :)

I knew for sure this song had a dark meaning behind it. It also fits very well with the album's name New Maps of Hell is it presents an unconventinal view of evil deeds.

Nice song!

Well, I am honoured to be the first to thank Brett for taking the time to participate in such discussions about the band's new music. It's truly awesome that we are lucky enough to not only get a new album, and get some sneak peaks but actually have the songwriter engage in decoding the content and meaning of the song. Thanks Brett!!

And the winner is... *drum roll please* AlMac! You nailed it sir! The song is about Perry Smith who was portrayed by Capote as a sympathetic, psychopathic killer - quite a paradox. The song asks how a man with seemingly gentile sensibilities can commit brutal heinous deeds. As to the many questions about the word "trasubstantiation", I simply meant to invoke Perry's early training in catholicism and the contrast between the profane (knuckle cracking nuns) and the sacred (receiving the eucharist), and the possiblility that these conflicting messages contributed to the make-up of the man he became.
Good Going AlMac, I'm very impressed. I honestly didn't think anybody could guess with the meager hint I gave. By the way Blood Meridian is one of my favorite books.
Best,
Brett

Jorge Luis Borges is one of my fav. Everyone should read one of his stories.

I don't know what inspired you Brett but so far the song is close to describe my ex.

I wouldn't be surprised if Brett hasn't already read Borges, especially with BR's popularity/travelling to S. America.
Although, before reading Borges, Berkeley's a good foundation - I found anyway. With knowledge of idealism, which is the essence in many of Borges stories/essays, it's quite an interesting perspective to approach him from. Oh, and Kafka, he's fun.
But, yeah, he's awesome for inspiration. Even my mate at Drama School has found ways of being inspired as an actor by him (from "Everything and Nothing", I think).

Ladies and gentlemen, Brett has done it yet again. The poet of the 21st Century. If only BR/Epitaph would make up their minds to shoot a proper video to promote this song. Call Gore Verbinski. In the same high standards of Boot Stamping on a Human Forever. So does anyone still have any doubts that Brett saved Bad Religion when he rejoined in 2001? Brett, please, if you want to keep the juice running, I recommend reading Jorge Luis Borges. That guy and his short stories will have you writing new songs like mad, hehehe...

BR's obscure literary referentilality is starting to annoy me. It's merely erudite posturing.

Cool. :)
I would say, as I suggested in my last post, that it's more likely to be about "In Cold Blood". And therefore about Perry Smith's disposition. There seem to be more direct links, at least as I presently perceive it. However, I'm not yet convinced - and I'd love it to be about "Blood Meridian". So I'm going to read into it a bit more, and then post what I think. Nevertheless (and either way) I've gained a far deeper appreciation for this song, which I'm going to continue to build on. Cheers Brett.
Alex

PartIII wins.

Brett used a variety of Billy X pseudonyms. Billy Gnosis is one, but he used Billy Pilgrim during the Seeing eye Gods project (see the Answer).

d. adrian>
Billy Pilgrim was the name Brett used on the Seeing Eye God record/project.

Blood Meridian of course. Too much blood, I'm getting confused.

Mike: You mean Billy Gnosis?
Yeah, I'm positively sure this song is about Judge Holden from Meridian Blood, and not from In Cold Blood, which it seems most people have googled up just about now.
I COULD be wrong though, but I doubt that I am. I love this song, on a sidenote.

Hey that brass boy connection is nice, never thought of that. The "crack your knuckles again" would easily refer to Smith's past and nightmares of being beaten by nuns, and the supplicate and survive the transubstantiation could refer to Nancy Clutter's begging for her life before she was killed.

Ok, never read in cold blood (watched Capote though) and the allusions to Perry Smith make sense too. The lyrics are so brief it is hard to pin them down. Brett, please settle things!

*In Cold BLOOD, sorry

Trying to get to a new interpretation, after Brett commented it had a literary reference and doing some research, I also thought it might be about Perry Smith, thought I wouldnt know what 'honest goodbye' refers to then. There's an almost evident plot in the line "cold-blooded killing machine" that points to In Cold Bold. Also the "brass boy" might describe Smith, who was of native american descents and had a brownish skin. "Sympathetic cold-blooded killing machine" might refer to him being actually an above average intelligence person, with passion for litterature, art and music and being shy and introvert rather than impulsive (that's how my wikipedia researchs described him).
As for the word transubstantiation, I dont necessarely think it should be taken in its literal definition. It might as well be a metaphor describing an unexepected change, almost mystical.

Well after a little research I now understand where the Billy Pilgrim pseudonym came from!

And yeah...I'm thinking Judge Holden makes a lot of sense.

haha sorry man, only by a minute though

Joe beat me to it.

I always interpreted it as a killer who was sent to jail, but then later reflected on what he did and found that it was the wrong thing to do. The whole transubstantiation part comes in when he feels that he is changing his way of of thinking, but he realizes that he cannot be forgiven for what he has done. The Honest Goodbye part comes into play when he dies. Why? Well, because he really means his goodbye. He feels that the goodbye is a way to tell us that he is sorry for what he has done and stuff like that. So yeah, it's pretty much In Cold Blood. And uh, I could go on some more, but... meh, I think you guys get what I mean.

On a final note, I think the part where it says "oh to be forgiven, but it wouldn't feel right. God it feels like an honest goodbye" is Smith trying to ask God's forgiveness for what he has done in life, but realizing that he most likely should not, because of the atrocity that he has committed. Therefore he is saying goodbye to God because he fears that he will not be meeting his maker (i.e. he knows he is going to hell).

I think the song is about Perry Smith, one of the murders from "In Cold Blood". The first part of the song deals with him looking inside of himself, while on the gallows, and reflecting on what he has become and the life that he has lived. The second half of the song (after the whoa part) is the crowd watching the hanging and asking what made him murder the Clutter family.
I think it was about Smith because of the use of the word transubstantiation (usually used to describe the change in the Catholic Eucharist ceremony) and the fact that the person is talking to God. In the book, it never really talks about the second murderer (Dick Hickocks) religious affiliations, but it does talk about Smith's. Also Capote, explained that Smith had had nightmares about beating nuns and the orphanage he was raised in. Lastly the song talks about the persons pain in his life and living on the age. It is expressed in the book that Smith was in constant pain and was addicted to asprin to fix it.

I could definitly have been

It isn't about suicide.

I was pretty darn sure it was about suicide... Im almost deceived it might not be. Not that suicide thrills me, but from my interpretation I thought it was a nice insightful song about the subject.

Suicide fits.

don't listen to brett, it's about sadam hussein

Mr. Brett is enigmatic, even when he gives clues. :)

Again, I'm really positive about it being about Judge Holden.

And Banjo...You should write songs or books, you are very creative. I?m still laughing of what your interpretation. hahaha

So it's a reference to "In Cold Blood"? In that case, let me see...
If that's the case, then the song seems to be written about one of the convicts on the gallows right before he's put to death. The chorus I guess would be questions he's asking himself right before he's executed. You know, reflecting on his life right before his death.
And I'd guess the first verse is something that is being said to him, maybe by a priest? The "supplicate and survive this transubstantiation" I would say has to do with an afterlife, or the hope for it.
Am I anywhere close?

AlMac for president!!!
Nice job man.

Note that in the last line, (Did you try?) But it wouldn?t be right, the person gives a reply before the question is actually totally asked, thus overcoming his own consciousness and getting from a wondering to a more decisive standpoint, while concluding that its a fair or just decision : God it feels like an honest goodbye
Then the whole whoa-oh-ohs take off on a departure feeling, sarcastic and distorted as the subject of the song feels kinda liberated by the conclusion he finally made. In my own opinion, this is exactly where suicidal ideas become dangerous, when the subject comes see the suicidal act as justified and inevitable.
The next verse then explores the subject's self opinion, with very poor self esteem :
That sick brass boy day dreamin? - cry baby, convict, demon
He also now sees himself as an immoral killer, even thought he never commited any crime or violent act during his life :
A sympathetic cold blooded killing machine

I am almost certain that this song is about Judge Holden, but I could be wrong. Am I Brett?

I first thought Honest Goodbye was about suicide... to an extend where actually every line makes sense. Now Im confused about this 'literary reference', but I'll post my own interpretations anyways.
Now get up and give in I?ll crack your knuckles again
Some person waking up and getting ready to face another day
Supplicate and survive this transubstantiation
Facing the sad reality that he's becoming more and more depressed and suicidal
And get so mean - I want to know what it means
Suddenly coming to realize how violent he has become toward his ownself, looking back in confusion as to how he's gotten so far...
The chorus, to me, then occurs as a conscious battle between the self, as the subject asks himself questions to find out where he got it wrong, but find no anwsers, and actually justifies his own suicide.

Whoops, I thought the books were both written by Kurt Vonnegut. I really need to start reading again.

So there may be a reference to "In Cold Blood" well a murder theme would fit quite well actually.

Comments by wow from United States on 2007-04-27 @ 20:03
Banjo: Wow... probably the worst interpretation I've ever come across. Thanks for the laugh though.
Thanks. V_V
That's what I love about Brett's songs though, many of them can be interpretated in many different ways. Infected comes to mind as one of the songs that could have loads of different meanings, as does Anesthesia.
Although I now see that Honest Goodbye's meaning is a little "specialist" as I've never read any of Kurt's books, I love hearing, for example, Skyscraper and picking up that the first few lines are paraphrased from the Bible. Even though I'm not exactly "in" on it here, I can still read up on it here to see what Honest Goodbye is about.

Haha, props to AlMac. I guess I need to read both books some time.
BTW, Brett, what happened with New Chapter?

Ahhh, damnit. I thought I was on the right path... oh wel, hah! cant wait to try to find the meaning in other new Bad Religion songs.. one of the best damn valuable pastimes!

well... my first thought was the book "Lord of the Flies", you do see the changement in characters there, the "transubstantiation", the depravity due to the violence -crybaby- along with the convicts/demons/killing machines. How did they get so mean? ..as in, how the hell did it go that way. The chorus is the inner battle, the conversation with your conscience.
.
those are my 2 cents.

AlMac,
All I can say is I'm very very impressed. You are indeed onto it. Pick a character from one of two great books you've mentioned and you will know the subject of my the song.
Best,
Brett

it's nice to see fans interpreting the song in real time instead of "LUL OMGS SUCKOXZ".
I'll give it a go after a party tonight :D.

Acutally... I think you might be on something here. The 'honest goodbye' would also fit with his death. :( RIP.

Banjo: Wow... probably the worst interpretation I've ever come across. Thanks for the laugh though.

Funny, the first literary reference that came to mind was Slaughterhouse Five... But I'm no Vonnegut expert.

breakfast of champions (sorry)

This is a partialstab in the dark, but I know Brett likes Vonnegut. I just read Breakfast of Champios and I can see a few comparisons for poor Dwayne Hoover

YEah I was actually thinking along thos elines until the "literary reference"

Huh. My first thought was Abu Grhab (however it's spelled) or Guantanamo Bay.

My first stab is going to be perhaps the fall of lucifer?

Yeah a littel narrowing would help. Something tells me that transubstantiation doesn't mean specifically bread into flesh, but simply transformation to one state from another.

And yet, I can't shake the feeling that the literary reference is biblical.

Man, that's tricky. Brett, how about another clue? A literary reference leaves it quite open. I mean, I guess there's possible links to "In Cold Blood" or, may be, "Blood Meridian". What kind of literature is it?

A 1967 film called "Cool Hand Luke" meets the specifications of "Honest Goodbye". It has symbolic biblical references which tie in the "transubstantiation" line while a major fight in the film ties in the first line of the song. The review also describes a sexually explicit scene that ties in most of the line that goes "sick brass boy daydreaming ...convict." I don't know where "cry baby" or "demon" fall into place in this particular literary reference because the man being beaten never cried and there was no mention of demons, all based on the review. That is the extent of the literary reference and Brett's input into the song.
Greg wrote the remainder of the song and sings about a time he witnessed somebody getting real mean: a fan? The questions he poses in the chorus are hypothetically posed by the angry person and answered by Greg. Given the title of the song is "Honest Goodbye" the person must have been angry to leave a scene-- a concert? The honesty in the goodbye is curious.

Oops.
I read it as "Hint: There's a literary reference".

Banjo, Brett stated below that it is a literary reference.

I'm gonna give it a go at guessing what it's about.
Now get up and give in I?ll crack your knuckles again
This line could mean after some sort of fight, where the narrator feels confident that he could pwn again. Possibly an argument with a fan who claims that Bad Religion have sold out?
Supplicate and survive this transubstantiation
The band hoping that the fans like the newer, better sound?
And get so mean - I want to know what it means
The previous "fans" shouting them down and saying that they've lost it, and being very mean after previously worshipping the band.
(Did you laugh?) You know I did
The band taking it in their stride?
(Did you cry?) I couldn?t get it right
The band's frustration at being unable to satisfy everyone.

That sick brass boy day dreamin?
The fan daydreaming and confusing reality with his twisted opinion of the band getting worse as time goes on. Sick brass boy = The literary reference?
Cry baby convict demon
The fan complaining because he doesn't get the new albums the way HE wants, claiming that the band sold out.
Hands so clean
Sarcasm regarding the innocense of the fan who fought against the band's evolution.
A sympathetic cold blooded killing machine
The fan showing pity towards the band, feeling sorry for them and giving himself a false pedestal to do so, unaware that he is helping to destroy something that is a big part of many people's lives - Bad Religion.

To Brett: Hmm... I found that transubstantiation (mainly) refers to the Roman Catholic ideology of bread and wine changing into Christ's body and blood. Is that the reason you chose this word? And does that have a connection to the literature you're talking about?
Otherwise, I'm clueless... I get a sci-fi vibe from it (as in robot stories like Brain Aldiss' Supertoys), but I don't think you were going for that.

I loved this song. It might sound a bit dif. than the other BR, but what the hell, they already made more than 200songs that's the "old BR" so it just makes me happy that they experiment a bit. I also loved heroes and martyrs, can't wait for the album to come out. I think it's gonna get even better than The Process of Belief. maybe this is the ultimate popsong Brett always wanted to make? :P the lyrics reminds more of a Brett song than a Greg song, but I could be wrong.

admiral awesome, i just want the chord progression. I would work it out myself but i dont have a very good ear for that sort of thing

I'll be happy to tell you guys what the song is about but first you should take a few tries at guessing and if someone get's it I promise to be honest and tell them so. Hint: It's a literary reference
-Brett

@the anechoic nebula: i tabbed out the intro lead. I can't post it here for some reason, but it's on the third page of the "Honest Goodbye Radio Rip" thread in the forums.

I like the line "A sympathetic cold blood killing machine."
Can someone tab it now, please?

sounds amazing! I think the whole album will be even better

funny how both the melody and lyrics are weird and the structure is so simple : [Intro]
[Verse + Chorus + Woah bridge]x2
[Outro = Intro + Whoas].

only, what the hell is it about? about Brett?

Wow, the lyrics got up fast.
I like this part "cry baby convict demon Hands so clean"