They did that for New America.

They did that for New America.

Comments by jabberwock from Azerbaijan on 2007-06-10 @ 01:49
can't remember what record it was, but we ran something similar, send the reciept of purchase and we sent you tickets a bad religion concert. it was a pretty nasty clusterfuck, but we tried.

I believe that was TGR, read something about that online at one point

I can see a lot of people asking BR for touring in certain places..
Well, I guess this is my chance too :P
Will you ever come to Greece? As far as I know, you were here in 1996, but I didn't even know of you yet (internet helped in that one btw, so I can't blame in on my part, with a clear conciense and all BR albums on my desk)..
I really hope you'll consider it

Comments by Su from Germany on 2007-06-10 @ 20:33
*bangs head against desk*
Don't remind me of that.

Awww I'm sorry, but there will come a day when it will be real

*bangs head against desk*

Don't remind me of that.

Oh I think you should check whats in that case, you never know it might be an Air Traffic cd (probably won't get this joke in less you know about the NMoH fakes on emule)

Little do you know my spies have intercepted the CD and taken it to my secret lair... shit, shouldn't have said that.

Comments by Su from Germany on 2007-06-10 @ 18:08
Psst, Mike, Tuesg's thugs have gotten hold of your CD! It's currently on the way to Scotland! *devises plan to intercept the CD*

Dispatches several fakes to throw you off the scent

Psst, Mike, Tuesg's thugs have gotten hold of your CD! It's currently on the way to Scotland! *devises plan to intercept the CD*

I want some pre-order bonus. I've been waiting for Interpunk since they had a really cool poster for TESF, but it seems they're n ot doing it this time around. And none of the German stores offer any goodies for pre-ordering. :(

Oh, Jay, will there be a limited edition of NMoH? At least that would be something to look forward to...

Comments by jabberwock from Azerbaijan on 2007-06-10 @ 01:46
by the new maps cd and brian baker will come to your house and cook dinner?

What's his speciality?

I'm excited for the Warped Tour this year. I'm going twice. First in Ventura for the 2nd date of the whole thing, then in LA for the very last show of the tour. It should be interesting to see how the new songs have progressed being played live from beginning to end.
And of course I'll be playing my favorite game, "Spot Hetson & Bentley in the crowds!"

I think most fans want to own the original CD/vinyl etc. It's like books in a bookshelf. You may read the stories on the Internet, rent the movies based on them, but face it, people will always buy books. Why? Because they look pretty on the shelf. When I've got friends over, I want to able to say "let's listen to the new BR CD" without turning on my computer.

Yeah I thought so. Except you have seen the new cd that you supposedly sent to me. still waiting on that.

Comments by Mike from Canada on 2007-06-10 @ 04:20
That's sound spretty cool...but what about the die hards who already have it? Does that mean you would be able to pick up the album before it's official release at Warped?

nope, we won't even see any of the new cd's til after the western canadian dates.

sorry josh, i can't really say right now whether or not we will get to tennesee. i would like to, but we haven't started looking at dates foe the fall yet.

Aww no response, guess that means no BR show in Tennessee anytime soon.

That's sound spretty cool...but what about the die hards who already have it? Does that mean you would be able to pick up the album before it's official release at Warped?

it's easier to have the cd's at the merch stand and offer incentives there. we will be doing that this year at all the tour stops. we have some pretty cool ideas.

That's pretty sick! i can see how it would have badly gone wrong, but pretty cool.

What if receipts were redeemable for free/reduced merch at shows?

can't remember what record it was, but we ran something similar, send the reciept of purchase and we sent you tickets a bad religion concert. it was a pretty nasty clusterfuck, but we tried.

I dunno...can Baker cook? I don't want salmonella for supporting my favourite band.

I guess another opportunity would be to take advantage of the revenue control over physical sales and use that. For instance $1 of each sale going to a charity, etc. That's another postive consequence of an actual purchase that cannot be pirated.

by the new maps cd and brian baker will come to your house and cook dinner?

*no* reasonable incentive, sorry

The only thing I can think of is incorporating swag, or other bonus materials which can't be leaked or reproduced digitally. I was in HMV the other day and if you bought the new Rush CD you could get a T-shirt at a heavily discounted price. Buy New Maps of Hell and get a free decal or whatever. I think the only hope for physical record sales is to package them with something adequately desirable that cannot be obtained through file sharing.

I think the major problem with this debate is there is now reasonable incentive that i can think of that he music industry could use to entice consumers to buy and turn down the free alternative. With a movies if you want to watch the full video in good quality you have to pay to see it in theatres at the release. Sure you can download the dvd version for free eventually, but many months after the inital release. With digital music, if i can have the product in perfect quality, for free, BEFORE it is even released, what enticement is there for me to buy? Perhaps having the physical object itself which for a small number (like myself) is important, but that is not a large enough market to satisfy album sales.

When I was there I think it stopped raining only for two days, i didn't get any work down on those two days I kinda disappeared off alone in to the wildlife for hours its nice to get away from a town/city atmosphere to reflect and the fact there aren't any street lights makes for lovely stary nights. But no i'm starting to sound like a chick flick

When I was younger, I used to hate it, trees, hills, fields, lochs...

However, now that I'm older I actually enjoy watching it. and can appreciate it.

It's weird, I don't mean to be a cliche and blame it on global warming, but for some reason we've not had much rain at all these last few years.

Comments by Alt+F4 from United Kingdom on 2007-06-09 @ 23:27
"It's really nice up here, the scenery really is beautiful."

All it has is scenery..... kidding of course I'm just miffed about the fact i had to spend a week up in the highlands in horrible weather for a University project

It's really nice up here, the scenery really is beautiful.

...Just as long as the weather stays nice.

Thanks so much Jay!

i will put in the suggestion for aberdeen.
i hope it works out. i would love to get up there.

Personally I think carling academy in Glasgow (as it has a bouncy floor) and an Aberdeen gig would gather the biggest crowds

I used to think that, but Reel Big Fish played there last night and apparently it was a really great gig and they want to come back.

UK Subs played last year and apparently that went well, and The Damned are playing there next month too.

Comments by Alt+F4 from United Kingdom on 2007-06-09 @ 23:08
"Aberdeen? Inverness?"

Isn't there bugger all in Inverness?

Looks like the plan for the album not to leak has worked, as nearly ever album that comes out on july 10th has leaked apart from NMoH

Aberdeen? Inverness?

Comments by Alt+F4 from United Kingdom on 2007-06-09 @ 22:59
Jay, are you guys ever gonna be likely to go any further north than Glasgow when you play in Scotland?

where do you suggest?

Comments by jabberwock from Azerbaijan on 2007-06-09 @ 22:54
"not sure yet, there are a few myspace things happening, not entirely sure of the whole arrangement yet. still working out specifics...."

Niffty, I look forward to seeing what is coming up

Jay, are you guys ever gonna be likely to go any further north than Glasgow when you play in Scotland?

I saw Crass' Feeding of the 5000 in HMV last week (Quite a shock - they had a special promotion of punk albums which included No Control and Suffer), which if I remember correctly has a thing on it saying "Pay no more than ?2 for this record" or something like that on it. HMV had a sticker on it saying "?7".

V_V

Comments
Comments by Tuesg from United Kingdom on 2007-06-09 @ 22:46
Any chance of one of these my space listening sessions for the new album at some point? Lots of crazy salivating fans out there they haven't even heard it yet and they need a 12 step program (i'm including myself in this)

not sure yet, there are a few myspace things happening, not entirely sure of the whole arrangement yet. still working out specifics....

Any chance of one of these my space listening sessions for the new album at some point? Lots of crazy salivating fans out there they haven't even heard it yet and they need a 12 step program (i'm including myself in this)

Comments by Su from Germany on 2007-06-09 @ 22:31
Yes, but if even the excessive piracy doesn't make retailers/record companies lower their prices, what can change their ways?

the retailers will change their ways when they are out of business, the labels will have to figure out how to embrace the internet and charge fair value for music. which i believe is what we are seeing, and the actual point at which bad brett and i agreed as the positive outcome of p2p sharing.

even though some labels tried to lower their sales price (indies like dischord and epitaph), the retail stores refused to acknowledge any suggested pricing and continued the policy of pricing based on popularity, rarity, or just what they assumed the market would bear. the internet exploded in a way that no one could have forseen, taking digital music with it. as i said before, filesharing is a perfect example of consumer revolt.
other issues that helped this along were the continuous introductions of new digital music formats, from vinyl to cd, mini discs, and whatever the hell else companies like sony and phillips kept introducing, fans of music were being forced to buy their favorite music over and over again, all to keep up with the newest format. again the direct result of this was consumer revolt... and again rightfully so...

Yes, but if even the excessive piracy doesn't make retailers/record companies lower their prices, what can change their ways?

Have you ever thought about selling your music through your site online? Take for example the t4 project I own the download of this (bought) but i just searched through it through file sharing networks and its no where to be found, so maybe this is a good way to tackle the effects?

i'd like to offer some more mathematics... hopefully i wont get crucified.
i will only speak from the historical standpoint of compact discs forward.
when cd's were first hitting the market, they were very expensive (compared to vinyl) to manufacture. around $3-5 for a finished product. this was the price that labels used to create their wholesale price. as the digital format became the standard, the price of manufacturing dropped dramatically, to the point of less than $1 for finished goods, but the labels never lowered their prices to reflect this. they stayed the same if not more. while this was happening, the retail shops were making a 100% mark-up of the wholesale price..ie; 7.99 became a 15.99 store price, and had taken the reigns of the pricing from the labels in terms of what they would charge for music in their stores... as digital music continued to expand and the internet continued to grow, site like napster evolved, not out of a malicious code, but a love of music... cont.

I like trent's idea

"I've have one record left that I owe a major label, then I will never be seen in a situation like this again. If I could do what I want right now, I would put out my next album, you could download it from my site at as high a bit-rate as you want, pay $4 through PayPal. Come see the show and buy a T-shirt if you like it. I would put out a nicely packaged merchandise piece, if you want to own a physical thing. And it would come out the day that it's done in the studio, not this "Let's wait three months" bulls---."

I tried to find out something else about piracy, and how the bands deal with it. I'd suggest googling "trent raznor piracy". It's interesting. Trent Reznor is Nine Inch Nails' singer, and he's one of the artists that is willing to justify piracy. He even admitted that he's a "pirate" himself, and he accuses the labels of ripping off the customers

Regarding the filesharing issue, I am strongly for bands streaming new album(s) at MySpace/Official Site/Label/wherever. That way, you can legally listen to the record in advance and decide whether it's something for you, and get incentives to buy the real record because the MySpace quality is rather crappy.

No way, they will prefer seeing my coin collection!

It's not fair, I don't have a coin collection to intice them into coming to my house. But I do have a nice garden they can play in.

I'll get some in don't worry. ^_^

Fine then your house it is as long as there is alcohol I'll go anywhere

But I wanted to show Jay my coin collection!

We could all go to the the anechoic nebula's house

:O

Then can you guys come to my house after you go to the anechoic nebula's house?

Or, as I will definetly be making the trip down to Glasgow (Somehow, I haven't worked this bit out yet), you guys can come back up with me, and skip the anechoic nebula's house altogether. ^_^

I'll show you my coin collection. ;)

haha, perverts

"I'll never lick anyone's ass in my life" - mmm, how about scarlett johansson's?

sigh, we know all too well. That's why we got out when we could.

Bad Brett, "thinking for yourself" doesn't mean forcing yourself to disagree with the "majority". Jay stated that, as much as he can understand that the net helps those who want to discover a band, who downloads and doesnt buy an album damages the band. It may be hard for us mortals to see how much it's actually harmful for the music industry, but Jay exposed the "numbers" of this situation, and i guess there's nothing else to argue about. I'm sure that more or less everyone here has downloaded an album from the net at least once, but this doesn't make us unable to see that bands suffer from that. So no one here is an asslicker. I'll never lick anyone's ass in my life

"Anyway, you just did it again. Instead of stating your own opinion, you say "Listen to Jay, he knows more than you"."?????
"...if you read carefully, its all ABOUT HOW YOU TALK DOWN to somebody who probably not only knows more about the music business than you..."------
"Also, you talk about things you know nothing about, like that I profit from file-sharing."--- so you buy every record you download?----
"My opinions is still the same, and instead of simply agreeing with someone else that happens to be the bass player of your favourite band, sit down a minute and come up with something to say on your own."----- even when i share the same view on this?`why? explain to me, smart boy, why? just to please you? i wasnt aware i had to ask you for permission which oppinion i have and with who i might share it. so what part are you gonna pick out now of this and what part are you gonna ignore?

madreligion: I don't know how many times I've stated this, but: There is no way to stop it. The only thing you can do is to ADAPT.
Anyway, you just did it again. Instead of stating your own opinion, you say "Listen to Jay, he knows more than you". That sort of sort does not add anything of value to the discussion. Also, you talk about things you know nothing about, like that I profit from file-sharing. I said earlier that I order tons of records and also that I'm musician myself. Maybe I would have gotten one of those great record deals that Jay talked about if it wasn't for P2P, who knows? My opinions is still the same, and instead of simply agreeing with someone else that happens to be the bass player of your favourite band, sit down a minute and come up with something to say on your own.

"Everyone knows that you would have another opinion if Jay said "Hey, P2P-sharing is great, it makes more people hear our music". Think for yourself - That what's Bad Religion is all about. But it's so obvious that most of you just "Follow The Leader"."-awesome, so while you "think" for yourself like a true smart boy, you say the other persons, who dont agree with you, lack that ability. yeah, thats a great starting point for exchanging thoughts and ideas... anyway, if you read carefully, its all about how you talk down to somebody who probably not only knows more about the music business than you, but also suffers financally directly by file-sharing (while you profit by it). its not like i am not using file-sharing, but i know when to shut up and not pretend like its all good and not harming anyone ever.

but please don't spam this thread by posting unessecary posts about how much Bad Brett suck.

So you are only one here that can call people bitches etc....

Its not your opinions. Its how you present them.

Yes, going to the movies is like attending a concert. Bands will always make money on tours and people will always go the movies. There you have it, a source of income that doesn't get affected of P2P, at least not in a negative way.
By the way, I understand if my posts make you frustrated, but please don't spam this thread by posting unessecary posts about how much Bad Brett suck. Everyone knows that you would have another opinion if Jay said "Hey, P2P-sharing is great, it makes more people hear our music". Think for yourself - That what's Bad Religion is all about. But it's so obvious that most of you just "Follow The Leader". There, I managed to put in a lame song quote myself! Woho!

Bad Brett, you're a cancer on society.

"by the way, one vinyl or one cd perhaps ten copies on a tape with less quality, but at least one person bought the cd and the rest have a reason to buy it for the better quality. one unpaid mp3 album leak, thousands and more identical mp3 copies."
As I stated ealier, bands should hand out promos only with voiceovers. Such promos give an idea of the overall sound of an album, but the voiceovers ruin the listening experience and give an incentive to buy the proper album.

now that you mention that remark of badbrett, he would also have to to compare going to a concert with going to the movies, and not with just listening to music. but well, who am i to talk, i am not nearly as educated as badbrett.

..And hello Jay. Please come to Finland! Please!

Well.. he's from sweden (badbrett). So.. you cant expect much from him. And what the hell does this mean:

"You really can't compare it with movies, because I'd say most people go to the movies because of the great experience."

You cant compare music with movies because movies are more of a great experience? So what is music then?

Comments by pcgamer58 from Global Citizen on 2007-06-09 @ 06:21
Hey Jay, me and some other people on the forums were wondering if Greg would even be able to pull off singing some of the new songs live based off the sample clips up on Amazon (Did you guys even authorize that?). Anyways it just seems very Gray Race-ish and some of the songs vocals seems pretty up there and you mentioned that Greg had a problem singing songs like Parallel and that's why you'd never play it live. Just seems like it may be the same case with some of the new songs."...
we wont really know until we play a few songs in a row, then a few shows in a row, etc. it's apparent when certain songs just become too difficult to keep in the list, they begin to sacrifice the quality of the rest of the songs...

man, badbrett talks about jay cant talk about micro management, cause its complicated, and then he starts to talk about the poor kid that cant pay for one record, but has an internet connection and electricity. not mentioning, that records can grow on you over time. besides the fact, that there are many ways to get to listen to an album, online streams, local music store where you can prelisten a cd and so on. anyway, the master of simplification is not worth arguing with, cause when he calls people who dont agree with him "asslickers", it shows that he is just a simple asshole himself. by the way, one vinyl or one cd perhaps ten copies on a tape with less quality, but at least one person bought the cd and the rest have a reason to buy it for the better quality. one unpaid mp3 album leak, thousands and more identical mp3 copies. still need a degree in micro management to understand there is a slight difference? or are you too idealistic and "educated"?

Hey Jay, me and some other people on the forums were wondering if Greg would even be able to pull off singing some of the new songs live based off the sample clips up on Amazon (Did you guys even authorize that?). Anyways it just seems very Gray Race-ish and some of the songs vocals seems pretty up there and you mentioned that Greg had a problem singing songs like Parallel and that's why you'd never play it live. Just seems like it may be the same case with some of the new songs.

I request a conerted effort at incorporating Requiem, but I'm not divulging where i may or may not have heard it from.

Comments by jabberwock from Azerbaijan on 09/06/2007 @ 02:31
hi (((((((chele)))))),
i'm doing great, how are you? we start the tour in 2 1/2 weeks, so i'm just spending my time with the boys. they're trouble,
yeah, honest goodbye was fun to make, tuned so far down... the strings were like spaghetti. are you coming to the show?
i'm ok, its getting better... i was just previewing the songs on amazon, they sound awesome! i do hope to make it to the warped tour, cos i wanna see flogging molly and pw!!

Ok, thank you. Maybe I'll go there anyway. Great discussion by the way, sorry for the "bitch". Thank you for taking your time and answering our questions. It's 4 AM here, so I'm off to bed now.

"Comment by Bad Brett from Sweden on 2007-06-09 @ 03:35
Jay: By the way, is it worth flying to Madrid to watch BR? Will you play more tracks from NMOH?"..
i dont see us playing more than 2 or 3 songs from nmoh. it's still too early to play so many songs that no one will know. i think we will be working more and more songs into the set over the course of the warped tour, so by the end of the year and into the next, we might have a better handle on what songs we play well and work well onstage.

Comments by Bad Brett from Sweden on 2007-06-09 @ 03:33
Jay: Yes, and that's a shame. But, I order TONS of records online and the feeling I get is that the records are getting cheaper, and at least I would like to believe that it is the P2P sharing that forces the companies to lower the prices"...
i believe that too, brett. as far as the high pricing of retail stores, that is the truest sense of consumer revolt.

Jay: By the way, is it worth flying to Madrid to watch BR? Will you play more tracks from NMOH?

Jay: Yes, and that's a shame. But, I order TONS of records online and the feeling I get is that the records are getting cheaper, and at least I would like to believe that it is the P2P sharing that forces the companies to lower the prices. Anyway, I have no problem with paying $20 for BR record that I know I will listen to thousands of times, but say there's a young kid (who haven't heard BR before) who hears Honest Goodbye on the radio and thinks that it's a great pop song. He then take all his savings to buy the record, just to realise that he doesn't like punk music at all. I'm sorry, but I don't think it should be that way.

I mean after Glasgow.

Then my house after that!

"Comments by jabberwock from Azerbaijan on 2007-06-09 @ 03:14
we're planning on getting there in the spring of 08, might be in the summer, but next year for sure."
OK, cool, thank you! I guess i should have bought a ticket for the concert in Spain this month.. Oh well! :D Hopefully i'll catch you at the next concert in Italy. Last time me and my friends found Brooks and took him as a hostage.. Kidding, he really seemed down to earth and that he didn't dislike staying with us for a while. It's ridiculous how no one else there was even recognizing him. Well, I hope something like that happens with you next time!
By the way, goodnight everyone. It's 3.30 am here. Time to sleep. Catch you later

Hey Jay, question for ya bud. I talked to Greg a few years back about this but maybe something has changed recently. I asked if you guys ever planned on playing Tennessee, and he responded that none of the bands promoters were ever able to get a gig lined up here. Would love to see you guys make it to TN. (Ya I know everyone else says that about their hometown) but seriously!! You guys have never been here, or atleast that I remember! Got some nice venues and a good crowd.

"Comments by jabberwock from Azerbaijan on 2007-06-09 @ 03:17
glasgow it is"

I'm holding your word on that haha

glasgow it is

As long as you plan on coming back to Glasgow at some point next year I'm happy. Of course I don't truly believe i can influence your touring plans but i'm sure gonna try

"Comments by atheist peace from Italy on 2007-06-09 @ 03:10
Hey Jay. Any idea of when you'll be able to tour in Europe? Doesnt need to be an exact date. I'd just like to know if it's likely to happen this year or the next thanks"...
we're planning on getting there in the spring of 08, might be in the summer, but next year for sure.

funny that people are now bringing up making tapes 20 years ago.
you CAN NOT view taping LPs / CDs as the same as DLing mp3s. the reason is simple: whenever you buy a blank tape or a tape recorder, a small portion of the money was paid to the RIAA / GEMA / whatever its called in your country. so the artist always got something from that too.

"Comments by atheist peace from Italy on 2007-06-09 @ 03:10
Hey Jay. Any idea of when you'll be able to tour in Europe? Doesnt need to be an exact date. I'd just like to know if it's likely to happen this year or the next thanks"

They won't be as I have said there being posted to my house in two weeks

Hey Jay. Any idea of when you'll be able to tour in Europe? Doesnt need to be an exact date. I'd just like to know if it's likely to happen this year or the next thanks

The big stores here do that a lot i have bought cds at ?12.99 and such got home unwrapped it only to find there is an RRP of ?8.99 on it

you're right brett, i commented on that earlier too, about how the labels and retailers had gotten out of control in their mark-up pricing. i totally agree that the industry is fucked.. but most bands don't set price points, and even those who can, epitaph / dischord / lookout/ etc; can and do get usurped by the retailers who ultimately decide the selling price of a cd. ie; we could put a sticker saying "pay no more than $10.99" and hmv could put a sticker right over the top of it saying $14.99.

Jay's right, the reality is the internet is very hard to break. It's completely saturated. These "unbelievably talented" musicians can only live as a musician; that's what they grew up on, that's what they studied (at the top schools). For them, doing anything else would be like death - and so they resign to live in relative poverty, for now. With films it's similar: It's ridiculous trying to promote or release your film solely on the internet, there's no money to be made in it. Only a few breakthrough, and hundreds of thousands try.
In regards to Azerbaijan, it's going to be in the news a lot more soon: As you've probably heard, Putin's suggested that America and Russia share a missile defence system satellite that would be set up in an ex-Soviet base in Azerbaijan. If it goes ahead, at least America (and Russia) will stop pestering and patronizing the Czech people and government; a country I have a particular affinity with.

Ah I knew my plan wouldn't fail, now on to the next part of the plan contact my soucres out side the rest of the members house and get them to send the band members to me. It should all come together in two weeks or so as long as no one gets lost in the mail

oh, thats where mike from canada's cd went. you should be getting it soon then.

Jay: Studies show that most people are willing to pay for music if it wasn't so expensive. iTunes is a great example. I pay for BR records because I know I know I will like them, and the reason I know that is because I taped Recipe for Hate back in 93.
You really can't compare it with movies, because I'd say most people go to the movies because of the great experience. Anyway, I know there was a PC game that you could download for free and pay for it "if you liked it". I'll try to look up how well that experiment worked out.

According to my soucres, I have a guy in a bush out side your house. He's waiting till you go buy with a copy of NMoH so he can get it off ya and send it to me ya see :P

i'm in canada? wtf??

Comments by jabberwock from Azerbaijan on 2007-06-09 @ 02:52
"i think it's hot outside...
not sure what part of azerbaijan i'm in, but it might be +40c, or -30c... "

Damn, thats either pretty hot or pretty cold, I'm glad I don;t get such extremes . But living in Canada I gues you must be used to it in some degree

omments by Tuesg from United Kingdom on 2007-06-09 @ 02:33
Jay been meaning to ask you this for ages but how is Azerbaijan is time of year? :P"...
i think it's hot outside...
not sure what part of azerbaijan i'm in, but it might be +40c, or -30c...

"Comments by Bad Brett from Sweden on 2007-06-09 @ 02:35
Jay, it's impossible to say who deserves to get signed. But personally I believe it's more fair that the people decide what they want to see released (by downloading it)"...
why would a record company invest money into a product that no one will buy because they've already downloaded it?
i do understand what you are saying, but the end result is always the same. i made a comment earlier about going into a movie and paying after you've seen it... if you liked it.

Comments by smarti22 from United States on 2007-06-08 @ 19:02
@athiest peace - you make a good point about people not thinking of it as theft, because they can't touch it. But unauthorized copying is nonetheless against the law."
Yeah, I didnt explain what i meant in the best way. I didn't try to justify who downloads, but rather I was trying to analyze the situation behind that behaviour :) If some day someone decides to eliminate the possibility of "digitalizing" tracks from CDs, to avoid any possibility of piracy, I'd be ok with it. I'd know that it would be for the good of the bands

Hah I had to wiki it before I asked as admittedly I had no idea where it was

omments by Tuesg from United Kingdom on 2007-06-09 @ 02:33
Jay been meaning to ask you this for ages but how is Azerbaijan is time of year? :P"...
i don't know... let me google mapquest it.

Jay, it's impossible to say who deserves to get signed. But personally I believe it's more fair that the people decide what they want to see released (by downloading it), than letting the record companies decide what the people should listen to. Of course you don't agree with me on this one, because without the record companies we wouldn't have seen the new punk wave in the mid 90's that put BR on the map outside the US.

Jay been meaning to ask you this for ages but how is Azerbaijan is time of year? :P

hi (((((((chele)))))),
i'm doing great, how are you? we start the tour in 2 1/2 weeks, so i'm just spending my time with the boys. they're trouble,
yeah, honest goodbye was fun to make, tuned so far down... the strings were like spaghetti. are you coming to the show?

Comments by Bad Brett from Sweden on 2007-06-09 @ 02:13
...They fail to get record deals because they only care about making money. If you release your demo on the Internet for free and it millions of people download it, you WILL get signed. If you see your music as something private until people pay for it, then well... good luck.
I believe it's great that anyone, anywhere can become famous over a night, simply by sharing his work on the Internet. And this is the real "issue". Record companies are afraid that they will lose their "might" when they no longer can manipulate people. That's what it's all about, and it's strange that you people don't realise this"...
bad brett, i wish what you said were true. but i know hundred of bands who have put their music free on the internet and not gotten the "millions of downloads, record deals or overnight fame"... you yourself said the issue was really complicated. but this explanation of "what its all about" is too hard to believe.

Bad Brett, You like him the most, yet you imply that he's a bitch? nice...




One flaw in your logic though is when you said, "Didn't you tape your freinds vinyls when you were young?"...
while that alone isn't a bad statement, it wasn't a global/economical issue when we used to do that as kids. P2P file sharing is a worldwide phenomenon now that is the latest of MASS technological advances. When we used to make tapes, it would take at least an hour per.... It wasn't a global issue that took all of five minutes. People can get on a P2P now and take an hour to get like 20 cds! So no its not the same at all. This is an actual act that directly correlates record sales. Making a tape when you were a kid just wasn't. If you can't see that, you just have blinders on!

Now can I get an Amen??!!????

AlMac:
"Some unbelievably talented musicians fail to get record deals, because the decline in record sales due to downloading means the musicians won't be sufficiently profitable."
They fail to get record deals because they only care about making money. If you release your demo on the Internet for free and it millions of people download it, you WILL get signed. If you see your music as something private until people pay for it, then well... good luck.
I believe it's great that anyone, anywhere can become famous over a night, simply by sharing his work on the Internet. And this is the real "issue". Record companies are afraid that they will lose their "might" when they no longer can manipulate people. That's what it's all about, and it's strange that you people don't realise this.

Comments by Bad Brett from Sweden on 2007-06-09 @ 01:58
he uses his fame to trick people that he knows everything about marketing management.

What the fuck? Who exactly is he trying to trick? He's just giving us his perspective on the situation.

dear jay,
how are you? i hope you have fun doing the warped tour and i look foward to buying the album and hearing the rest of the songs. despite the shock of honest goodbye it really has grown on me and i like it. i really really like heros and martyrs!!
by the way, that dude who said, the internet made br was fucking FUNNy. i'm glad fer the net tho, cos it makes getting tickets to br shows so much easier than having to call up ticket master!

Comments by Bad Brett from Sweden on 2007-06-09 @ 01:20
And by the way, if you would like to discuss these issues with me in real life, just let me know and I will tell you where I live.
Hilarious.

I have nothing against Jay, he's been my favourite member the latest years and I agreed with pretty much everything he's said when he talked about raising children and stuff. However, I do not agree with him in this thread and he what I don't like is that he uses his fame to trick people that he knows everything about marketing management. His record collection is not science folks.

All he did was state his opinion on the figures he has available to him.

Tuesg: Like I said, there are still no proofs - and even if there would be, Jay is not the right man to discuss this with, because it's really complicated.

Mr. A: I got a question and I answered it. You critisize me for insulting Jay and then you insult me. Anyway, I don't see why I should agree with someone just because he's famous or plays in a band I like. Ok, it was unecessary and childish to call him "bitch", but that's about it. When people who have studied marketing management and economy for years still can't tell if p2p lowers record sales, it's kind of silly that a bass player tries to tell everyone "how it is", simply by stating that he has been a musician for 27 years and how many percent of the bands he owns records with he hasn't been able to see.

Are you seriously denying the fact that P2P programs are causing some artists to lose money from reduced sales?

To all you ass-lickers:
I actually came up with tons of arguments. I don't know if Jay secretly has been studying marketing management and economy all these years, but even if he has, there's no way he can "prove" that p2p causes him to lose money. And even if he could prove it, it doesn't matter, because there is no way to stop it.
So basicly Jay has two simple choices:
Accept the way things are and be happy that he can make a decent amount of money by doing what he love...
...or he can do like the rest of us, take giant loans just to be able to afford a decent education, just to make sure that we will make enough money to buy a home.

I don't think Jay has ever said he has got upset about it from looking over the post he just seems to offer up a few figures and his own views on certain issues

"I'm studying hard to become a civil engineer"
Damn, I'm so impressed. My dear friend, I studied Geography, Sociology and Physics and I have a Diploma degree, but I don't frequent message boards of bands I like and randomly insult their members. I don't think you are really that educated and smart, because you lack some basic but very important soft skills: knowledge of human nature and respect. Do yourself a favor and learn some lessons in human interaction or you will fail in work life; education as civil engineer or not.
"a righteous student came and asked me to reflect
he judged my lifestyle was politically incorrect..."

Jay: I would love to discuss these things with you in person. I'm not angry, rather surprised, that a punk band that has been around for 27 years and earned tons of money, still seem to get upset that people "steal" their music.
I've always wanted to support the band by buying the records. I own every BR record, All-Ages as well, even though it doens't contain anything new. BR has been my favourite band since I was 7 years old.
Still, my opinion is that "copying" is not the same as "stealing". Didn't you tape your freinds vinyls when you were young?
I think you sound greedy and that you actually think that people who download the music without paying for it are nothing but thiefs stealing your money. If I got you wrong, I apologize.
And by the way, if you would like to discuss these issues with me in real life, just let me know and I will tell you where I live.

"Comments by madreligion from Global Citizen on 2007-06-09 @ 00:37
bad brett, your statements become more stupid from post to post."

When people get cornered/run out of a decent arugement they get personal and irrational generally

yeah jay, its like a lottery, be thankfull, it has nothing to do with the fact that you play great music in a great band and have toured your ass off for years, no no no, its just cause so well educated people like bad brett are so smart to throw money out of the window for charity. how dare he to ask to get paid for his work, especially since bad brett knows that jay got more money than he is allowed to have (by bad brett). / sarcasm off. seriously, bad brett, your statements become more stupid from post to post.

Answering anything with maths has that effect on people since it rather hard to create an argument against it.

"Comments by Bad Brett from Sweden on 2007-06-08 @ 22:56
Whoa. I just realised that Jay is being a total bitch.
Jay: You said that punk records don't sell as well now as they did back in 94-95. Maybe the reason that thousands of people still attend the concerts, is that they hear the music on the Internet?
This is so against everything I believe in."...
bitch isn't a term i hear to often, in fact i will take that as the huge insult that you meant it to be. i don't see how answering someones question with mathematics makes me a bitch, but you have convictions of your opinion that i don't agree with. that is twice in this thread that you have insulted me, and i wonder if it's not just the security of anonymity that makes it so easy. i find your use of personal attacks nothing more than defensive posturing, and i apologize if anything i have said has made you feel the need to do so.

Danny Holloway: Sorry, I missed your post.
I know what you're saying and I'm studying hard to become a civil engineer and honestly, I think that I will contribute more to process of improving the society, than an (as far I know) uneducated bass player who talks about things he really doens't know that much about.
Don't get me wrong here, I love what Jay is doing and it has brought a lot of joy to my life. But he's earning tons of money of doing what we're doing in our sparetime. He should be so god damn thankful that he has this possibility, because really, it's like winning a lottery.
But instead he's bitching about how much money he loses on piracy, something that has existed for years, well before he was even born. It's sounding like something Paris Hilton would say.
And if he is so poor, maybe he should quit his job and get educated instead, because I would do what he's doing for free (and I know I would be capable of doing it as well).

actually since generator it seems, according to wikipedia: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad_Religion

bad brett, your statement doesnt make sense. "still" attend concerts? thousands? cause they listen on the internet to them? i am pretty sure bad religion sells more cds than people who attend their concerts. jay just said, the numbers arent the same. anyway, for germany, i can say, every album since stf were in the top 100, some even among the top 50 and top 20. i dont remember if the gray race or stf was a bigger seller here, they gray race was among the top 20 and even top 10 i think for several weeks.

Badbrett, Jay is being a total bitch because he's stating a fact that you didn't realize? Because he's in a professional band and sees the figures you don't...has knowledge you'll probably never have? Thats intelligent...
btw, noticed you never responded to the comment i left specifically for you. Should you just conciede now?

ps

I'm sure some people attend the concerts after hearing the music on the internet, but there are many people who attended concerts before the internet and continue to do so. You make it sound like the internet has sole responsibilty.

Jay is just saying what the music industry is like from a band's point of view. If that makes him a bitch, then "What Can You Do?"

Whoa. I just realised that Jay is being a total bitch.
Jay: You said that punk records don't sell as well now as they did back in 94-95. Maybe the reason that thousands of people still attend the concerts, is that they hear the music on the Internet?
This is so against everything I believe in.

ps

Comments by jabberwock from Azerbaijan on 08/06/2007 @ 07:25
i have to go do the radio show now, no time to write out a list, but it would include songs from into the unknown and at lease [sic] 2 cover songs..


You should do heat of the moment cos that video clip was hilarious.

Personally I buy CDs cos I like to look through all the artwork in the booklet and I usually only ever download rare songs that I'm not likely to find on CD like Waiting For The Fire and Into The Unknown. (Although it was actually a friend who downloaded ITU, he gave me a comp with it on aswell as a couple of christmas songs and some stuff by other bands.)

On the issue of how important the internet is for discovering bands I discovered all the bands I listen to through word of mouth (and stealing my sisters CDs) so for me it's not that important. Also quite a few of the bands I listen to such as Minor Threat and Operation Ivy have split up so there's no chance of me seeing them live :(

By the way, Jay, when you do your next non-Warped show in LA, could you please add Evangeline to the list?
Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease?

@JedExodus - Video of Karl Rove rapping on YouTube probably isn't a copyright violation, because it's fair use. He's a public official, his actions are of public interest, there's no profit being generated, and unless Rove plans to market a rap video in the future, there's no harm to his potential income.
Look! I'm actually using my expensive education!
@athiest peace - you make a good point about people not thinking of it as theft, because they can't touch it. But unauthorized copying is nonetheless against the law.

Comments by jabberwock from Azerbaijan on 08/06/2007 @ 07:25
i have to go do the radio show now, no time to write out a list, but it would include songs from into the unknown and at lease 2 cover songs..
First off, what radio show? Your appearances are always so entertaining.
Second, ITU? I though you hated that album. :P But that would be a seriously amazing show, alone for those.
And third, does that mean there will be NMoH promos on eBay up for grabs after the album release? I love promos, they're awesome.
From the sounds of it, the recording seesion seem like a very relaxed and fun experience. How would you compare it to the previous two albums in atmosphere etc?

Comments by martin from Germany on 2007-06-08 @ 16:34
"well if THATs your point then i kinda agree. but what you said earlier about the along the way video, youre wrong, mad religion is right. any sucka can ask a small (!!!) band to be allowed to tape their shows and release a video off it. hell, im sure BR were fucking proud and gladly said yes. and im sure that video helped them too. WITHOUT the internet!!! but what you must see is they werent "big" then, not even in germany."
But along the way still proves my point they were bigger in Germany, are bigger in Germany and always will be bigger in Germany than they are in the UK. I know nobody else here who listens to bad religion. A lot of people like bad religion because they have heard them on the internet that is fact I would be here arguing this point if it was not for discovering bad religion over the Internet.

Comments by Tuesg from United Kingdom on 2007-06-08 @ 14:46
Mad religion your arguing a completely different point from most people here only one or two people are arguing bad religions fame is down to the internet I have stated many time I do not think that. What I'm saying is bad religion have the internet to thank for some of there fan based especially somewhere like the UK where they are generally ignored
well if THATs your point then i kinda agree. but what you said earlier about the along the way video, youre wrong, mad religion is right. any sucka can ask a small (!!!) band to be allowed to tape their shows and release a video off it. hell, im sure BR were fucking proud and gladly said yes. and im sure that video helped them too. WITHOUT the internet!!! but what you must see is they werent "big" then, not even in germany.

To bring forth a different aspect of the downloading music/decline in record sales situation:
Sure, illegal downloads probably does have an impact, but think about how the popular culture situation was 10 years ago. Almost noone bought movies, and the gaming industry was also a lot smaller. From around 2001 DVD sales exploded, so obviously, people will have _less_ money to spend on music when they also have to spend it on movies. I think this is a fair assumption to make, as both music and movies (and games) are, for the most part, entertainment items that are quite similar.
I think think it's good though to make steps reducing the chance for album leaks several months in advance.

Comments by jabberwock from Azerbaijan on 2007-06-08 @ 05:31
Comments by jabberwock from Azerbaijan on 2007-06-08 @ 05:31
maybe if you're the rolling stones you make more money on tours. there are so many levels of what a band can make live, what the royalty advance against sales are.. it's impossible to make a blanket statement like that.
It always seemed to make sense when brought up in the piracy argument, but I've never really been sure as I also remember that you guys wern't so sure about going to Germany because you lost money on the US tour.
I guess that's another valid anti-piracy argument then guys - If a band doesn't sell records, they will find it really hard to tour.
And yes, I really can't imagine that the less hardcore fans will buy the album after downloading the leak.

Mad religion your arguing a completely different point from most people here only one or two people are arguing bad religions fame is down to the internet I have stated many time I do not think that. What I'm saying is bad religion have the internet to thank for some of there fan based especially somewhere like the UK where they are generally ignored

wasnt along the way a project by some students anyway? besides that, thinking that bad religion have to thank the internet for their current status is nonsense. they were famous among the punk rock scene before the internet, and stf came out before most people even heard the word "internet". and germany isnt the only country where they have a legendary status. just look around south america and spain. i would say, jsut because BR isnt big in one country (UK) for whatever reason, doesnt mean they arent anywhere else, and that without the internet.

Comments by martin from Germany on 2007-06-08 @ 13:56
yeah but they hadnt had all that back in 1991, remember?
they STARTED having all that, and the success of recipe and stf, WITHOUT the internet. explain that.
Along the way, a tour dvd which is set in EU, primarily Germany from 1989. And they wouldn't have shot that there f they didn't have a big fan base in Germany

Comments by Tuesg from United Kingdom on 2007-06-08 @ 02:12
Just because Bad religion is big in one country doesn't mean it they are in another. Where as in your country they have a number 6 hit and headline festivals.
yeah but they hadnt had all that back in 1991, remember?
they STARTED having all that, and the success of recipe and stf, WITHOUT the internet. explain that.

I don't think that who downloads stuff can be considered a real thief anyway. The same people wouldn't have the guts to enter a real shop and steal a record. I guess that at least 50% of the people who download don't even realize what they're doing. As I said, they just find what they want at home, and for free, and they get it. It's all part of the process of the virtualization of life. Why do people would rather "fight" on the net instead of doing that in person? Why won't people go out anymore and make friends on the net? Cause they're sure they won't get hurt.. It's all virtual, you can't "feel" anything anymore. Same goes for music. You can't "touch" the music you download, so it doesn't really feel like you're stealing something. I think it's more or less like the concept expressed in "I Love My Computer". Now I appreciate that song a little more, hehe

On the Stuttgart show in 2000 some younger fan mistook me for an empoyee of the venue (LKA Longhorn) and I had to explain to him that I'm just an average concert goer, too - and I was only 27 back then. That was one of my stranger and more embarrassing concert experiences. So I feel quite old nowadays and I'd like to know if there are many other BR fans left who are well in their 30ies...
At least the audience at Iron Maiden shows is a bit older - will see them tonight and I'm on my way to the venue now!

Wow, The Process Of Belief and The Empire Strikes First barely sold ONE FOURTH of Stranger Than Fiction? Jay, I'd really like to know the average age of the current Bad Religion "consumers" and concert goers. Maybe you are right and Bad Religion caught a window of opportunity with Stranger Than Fiction back in 1994. Many of the older fans still on board (although I guess you lost a couple of "tr00 punks" when you left Epitaph), while you won over many new younger fans during the pop punk revival that made Green Day and Offspring huge. I'd really like to know if many of the older folks dropped by the wayside and are not interested in the band or this kind of music in general anymore. Are the concert goers an indicator of your current fanbase? There still seem to be many older fans in the audience nowadays, but predominately teenagers and people in their early twenties I'd say.

Jay,
Do you know if you guys are gonna come over here to the east cost(Connecticut) anytime soon, besides the warped tour? The only band in the warped tour that I find worth seeing is BR, but I dont want to only see a 35 min show.
So are you guys gonna go on a New Maps of Hell tour?
Thank you,
Tom B.

Comments by Banjo from United Kingdom on 2007-06-08 @ 04:09
It's a shame, it would be awesome for you guys to get big over here.
Normally I'd complain about hearing a band I like on the radio too much, but I listen to BR so much it wouldn't make much of a difference.
It is a shame there not big over here, however i'm lucky enough that not so far away from me is a small independent music shop which generally has BR albums. I think the guy knows I have an obsession and will hold a new record for me. I much prefer to shop there than some impersonal virgin mega store or HMV

Comments by jabberwock from Azerbaijan on 2007-06-08 @ 05:36
here's an argument against the "live income vs. record royalty" issue.
i have a fairly extensive record collection. i would venture to say that at least 75% of the bands in that collection a have never and will never see live. not because i don't want to (in most cases), but it's just a fact.
This is true, I have a large record and out of that its only been possible for me to see 6 or 7 of those bands live (bad religion being one of them. But i have only been able to see each of these bands once. So i have probably attributed more to record royalty than live income

Comments by Some Guy from United States on 2007-06-08 @ 02:29
Regardless of what country you're from, if you're into punk, you almost certainly know about bad religion.
I was not in to punk when I discovered bad religion I was 13 at the time

So Jay, what do you think about RIAA's tactics? They are suing lots of people and demanding huge fines.

How do we fix the dilemma of the exchange of music? There really isn't a way in this day and age, i don't think. People enjoy free things plus many artists don't get their due cut anyway, as the middle men seem to take most of the money. One thing is for sure, the majors of the music industry seem to be slowly going the way of the buffalo, and that is good, for homogeneity in music goes against the grain of what music is about, i think. It's art. Perhaps, along with a new order in music a new way of getting to the artists what they deserve will be available. However, I must add that maybe things will just get shittier, as that is a common motif in...everything. I also think it is a smart move for Bad Religion not to release the album in advance, I bet they do see a difference in their album sales. I am done with my 900 words of glory.

You'd kill, Mike? damn...
Jay, I KNEW it. You call Graffin and make him sing "Chasing The Wild Goose" to you over the telephone when you're having trouble falling asleep, don't you.

http://www.newint.org/issue359/pics/pirate.jpg

huh, really? i would have expected that in jest, but...interesting, and cool. i would kill to see it.

mike, too soon to know about the new stuff, i think heroes and martyrs will stick..
i have to go do the radio show now, no time to write out a list, but it would include songs from into the unknown and at lease 2 cover songs..

ooooh Jay i have another good question. If you could create a setlist for a show, no need to please the fans or other band members, just a set of songs that you would choose to play for whatever reasons, what would it be?

"...If you look a it from their perspective they wont want to pay for something they might not like."
"like going to see a movie and paying for it afterwards... if you liked it?"
hahaha yeah point taken. I was just stating that in my opinion people might think like that whether they consciously realise it or not. i dunno now i think im just talking out of my arse

Well I am excited to hear it, and that the band seems to be totally positive about the record. Of course publicly, i wouldn't expect anything less, but happy BR tends to be kickass BR. Do you have any idea which new songs are likely to stick in the live set?

yeah mike, it was so much fun! a great record for us to make... and i am excited to get out on the road again and for everyone to hear the new stuff.

By the way, Jay it's great to see you posting again! Are you excited to hit the Warped tour and have the album drop? I know you've said that you see each album as memories from recording it, fromt he Epitaph video it looks like it was a lot of fun in the studio!

hey now thats not fair :P

what happened to the one i gave you?

There really is no way around it, if you want to listen to the music, you should pay for it. The producers of the product deserve it. Unfortunately, the climate now is that the product doesn't matter, those that pay do so for alternative motivations, supporting a band they like, etc.

How bout this Jay:

I'll buy the album from you early :) Deal?

"...If you look a it from their perspective they wont want to pay for something they might not like."
like going to see a movie and paying for it afterwards... if you liked it?

It's a very sticky issue, and will have to be resolved somehow, and soon. Personally, i don't much have problem with people downloading. I don't...except unrealeased live stuff, i don't agree with it, but what really troubles me is that somewhere along the line some person(s) has bought the record and then disrespected the artist enough to distribute that work for free with absolutely no rights to it. that sucks.

in my opinion most, if not all the people participating in this discussion will buy the album whether it leaks or not. The problem is the people who havnt previously heard much of the band or arent massive fans of the band. in previous years they may have bought the album now they can just download it for free. If you look a it from their perspective they wont want to pay for something they might not like.

Yeah, and my earlier comments were not self righteous. I download w/bittorrent files like hell. I truly don't remember the last CD I bought. (I've never NOT purchased a BR CD though, FYI). I honestly don't know if I'll just download NMoH or buy it. It'll probably be the latter, as with BR I need the actual CD art and what not due to being obsessed. But here's one point. A few years ago my car was broken into and all of my cd's were stolen (tons). Since then I've mostly downloaded. Does it make me a cheapskate? Probably. But I hate money going down the drain like that and don't want a repeat. Maybe being on Epitaph its different now, but doesn't BR make more money off of merchandise and touring than on royalties. I'd imagine on a major label, BR as a band made $3/cd at the most?...? But w/merchandise, they'll be collecting til their kids are they're age. Tim Armstrong is the perfect example. OP IVY is just as strong a force now(if not more). He's gotta be banking from merchandise.

Ok, I should probably correct my statement a bit. Downloading music, as in one or two songs to see if you like a band is ok. Downloading an album to see if you like the band isn't. I have heard so many people say "I downloaded it and now I own it!" and I look at their CD collection and notice 5-6 store bought cds and 100s of multi-color jewel cases full of downloaded goodness. My point is you can't say "I download to see if I like the band" and then turn around and copy it to a cd or leave it sitting on your harddrive. if you REALLY want to "check" out a band then why not try one of the many sites that offer .99 cent downloads, sample tracks (purevolume comes to mind) or others. Personally I use a program called Rhapsody that I get 24 free STREAMS a month. I can upgrade if I want or even pay the .99 cents. I agree with Jay, I have around 3000 cds (all store bought or promos from the record company I worked with) and I will never see half of them live.

There's a point in every argument here, the only way to be truly right is to agree with everyone. Yes artists lose revenue from downloads, let's not deny it screaming "FUCK THE RIAA!" at the top of our voices. The RIAA represents a LOT of people who rely on record sales for income. Even this month a record store in my town had to shut down, the owner was in no doubt that internet downloads had a large part in it. If a band doesn't sell enough, the label drops them and they're unemployed, maybe those lost albums could've attributed to downloading. Then of course the internet back in the day helped me investigate BR after seeing a video at some ungodly hour at night on MTV, leading to me buying albums, merchandise and gig tickets. In short, this argument will go on forever. Everyone's wrong, so let's all go home and watch that video of Karl Rove rapping on YouTube...or is that copyright infringement?

here's an argument against the "live income vs. record royalty" issue.
i have a fairly extensive record collection. i would venture to say that at least 75% of the bands in that collection a have never and will never see live. not because i don't want to (in most cases), but it's just a fact.

maybe if you're the rolling stones you make more money on tours. there are so many levels of what a band can make live, what the royalty advance against sales are.. it's impossible to make a blanket statement like that.

It is shocking just how much of an impact the Internet is having on good bands.
I often read in the piracy argument that bands make loads more money off concerts than CDs though. Is this true?

That's sad, Jay. I guess it's a really complex situation. But it's good to see that you know that not everyone who first downloads an album isn't necessarily a thief. I think it rather shows that the internet is the ultimate weapon for a lot of the lazy, impatient, spoiled people we're becoming thanks to the modern culture. The passion for music and art is being replaced by the "superficial urgency". You can get music from home and for free. "Why going to a real shop? And why should I spend money?", people think. That's the whole point i guess. And it's a shame

It's a shame, it would be awesome for you guys to get big over here.
Normally I'd complain about hearing a band I like on the radio too much, but I listen to BR so much it wouldn't make much of a difference.

oh, and before the comments start flowing, it is absolutely possible that we just don't have the same potential for record sales that we had in 94/95. we are older and not as marketable, and that time frame was certainly unique in terms of "punk rock" record sales...

sorry, put the cart before the horse... i should have said that we've put out TWO records in the past 6 years. the new one isn't out yet.. aww fuck, now i've jinxed it!!

"Comments by Tuesg from United Kingdom on 2007-06-07 @ 18:42
While I'm at it feel free not to answer this jay but what effect does piracy actually have on bad religions sales or are you not privy to that kind of information?"
it's impossible to answer. there is no definitive number of records we should sell, and even if there is a "reasonable estimate", how can we compare sales of stranger than fiction with no substance?
i can look at overall patterns according to radio play, touring cycles and positive / negative reviews from critics and fans to give me some idea of where a records sales MIGHT fit in, but it is speculation at best. i will give you this example. in 1994/95 we had moderate success at press and radio, positive touring cycles and the best selling record in our history. we have, in the past 6 years, put out three records that were at least as popular, and at least as successful at press and radio, headlined strong tours and haven't been able to sell 1/4 of the records.

Regardless of what country you're from, if you're into punk, you almost certainly know about bad religion.

My comment below was to martin from Germany

Just because Bad religion is big in one country doesn't mean it they are in another, apart from a BR concert I have never seen another BR shirt, never heard a song on the radio, never heard a song on the TV, and in less a new album is coming out which warrants a small article in a music rag there is nothing about BR. Where as in your country they have a number 6 hit and headline festivals

Since I am not Australian, I have grounds to complain about there being only 35 minutes of mayhem to enjoy. Bummer.

everybody who keeps claiming that BR wouldnt have been successful without the net, or who keep saying "how could i ever have become a fan without DLing?"
to all you i ask this: how did BR manage to sell any record until 1995 or so then? how did _I_ get to be a BR fan in 1991?
youre kidding yourselves people. youre justifying it. you can always learn about music, even without stealing it. for example, thats what compilations used to be for.

Also I guess I was wrong about BR likely playing a longer set at Warped Tour. Only 35 minutes. Well, FUCK. I guess I'll be spending $1 per minute to hear them play, 'cause I sure as hell am not there to see any of the other bands.

I am giving NMoH to my niece for her one year birthday that happens four days after the release. It will go well with custom made crossbuster onesy. What can I say, the kid already loves punk rock...

It is still Santa Claus here I don;t really know that many people I would be able to give bad religion records to

I for one am a bit happy they've done this. I definitely took advantage of downloading the previous two albums... it is, well, quite punk to throw away our expectations of a leak and leave us chomping at the bit till the actual release date.
That being said, if there was a leak I'd download it. Sorry. Much like everyone here I've put a lot of money into Bad Religion. Due to theft and other circumstance I could say I've bought each album at least three times... and I wouldn't have done that if I didn't appreciate the band so much. So yeah, sometimes I feel I have the right to indulge, but its only out of love.

Personally, I plan on buying extra copies of NMOH to give to people I know who otherwise probably wouldn't buy the album. When new BR records come out, I become "BR Santa Claus" (or BR St. Nick for you UK kids) and usually end up buying about eight or nine copies for other people.
I also can't wait to get the vinyl!

In fact one better heres the whole annoying unskipable movie http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqNW4vUARxc

And the whole thing i think is
You wouldn't steal a Car.
You wouldn't steal a Handbag.
You wouldn't steal a Mobile Phone.
You wouldn't steal a Movie.
Movie Piracy is Stealing.
Stealing is Against the Law.
Piracy. It's A Crime.
While ominous music is playing

lol, yeah sorry bout that. I hate Metallica. I really don't think they have room to complain. I just threw their name in there, though I don't think its a mystery why...

Nice allusion Banjo...trying to think of the next line. Is it, You wouldn't steal a car?

Danny Holloway please for the love of god don't bring Metallica in to this discussion, I beg of ya hahah :P

BadBrett, you also said that as a musician your just glad if someone listens to your song. I feel the same exact way with my band. I'm thrilled when the crowd seems into it or even sings along . But I also have a real job aside from my band to provide me with income. This is how I support my wife/drinking habits and oh yeah eatg. Don't know how old you are but if your an adult and have a fulltime job and are the sole source of your own livelyhood, you might relate. But you can beleive I'll be pissed if money is missing from my paycheck @ work. Well for musicians like Jay and co. BR is they're job. They're income is our consumption. So yeah they have every right to bitch if they put out a product and get cheated the source of their income in the end. This applies for BR, Social Distortion...bands like The Shins or Franz Ferdinand or even multi-millionare's like Metallica or Justin Timbrlake or whoever (though I do think they have less room to bitch, for the record).They need to eat too.

Comments by Banjo from United Kingdom on 2007-06-08 @ 00:14
You wouldn't steal a handbag...
Well if it was a nice handbag, hah, joking of course

You wouldn't steal a handbag...

I agree w/Jay. Bad Brett, I think your way off infact. Saying that BR would be nothing w/o the internet the way that you did (like it was a fact) is a terrible statement. Its definitely a good debate, but completely inconclusive. In fact the reason I got into BR back in the day (like it was 20 yrs ago, lol) is because of the early punk-o-rama comps, particularly the first two. I'm not COMPLETELY hip to how kids get their punk information now, but I doubt the internet is the ONLY source. Word of mouth is still huge, particularly in my social area, which is how I got into the Lookout Records bands I listened to in the early 90s. Plus, BR is an influential band that mainstream/up and coming bands always name when discussing their backgrounds. When I was 11 getting into Green Day, that's how I found out about Stiff Little Fingers or The Clash. So your statement is completely incorrect. Don't doubt that the internet has helped, but is the root cause of BR's success?

It might be easier for new fans to get into Honest Goodbye than Heroes and Martyrs.

The thing that bothers me over is issue is I go by a movie and I have to sit through an anti-piracy which last anywhere between 30 seconds - 2 minutes which is unskipable yet a downloaded copy will not have this. I worry if CD will soon have an audio anti-piracy warning or the likes

oh yeah. i forgot about that.
i'm wondering why the band/label chose honest goodbye as the single, when the album will surely have far superior songs

i agree, tuesg. i am not attacking, i am embracing. the backlash was never against the artist.. (well, except lars).
the problem was record labels and retail outlets we're greedy, digital manufacturers were attempting to outdo each other with their formats, all leading the fans and consumers to rebel (and rightfully so!).

modernman85 Requiem for Dissent was NOT a leak it was on the warped tour 2007 comp that came out on the 5th of june so they got it of the leak of that

jabberwock, any insight into how Requiem for Dissent leaked? fantastic song, by the way. i couldnt resist listening

I should clarify that I'm in no way attributing bad religions total success to the internet

Pffft Jay your being modest BR has some of the best internet fan sites I have yet to come across. Granted there are people out there who are never going to by another record, movie, or pay for cable or sky as you can get everything on the internet now. But realistically I don't see this problem going away there are so many file sharing networks now that it would be impossible to hit them all. I don't think attacking the file sharing networks (which is currently being done to fix the problem) is the right way to go about it.

and the christmas holiday issue is that the entire industry basically shuts down in late november... if you dont have your material ready by then, you're screwed and have to wait until feb...

i would like to point out that i am referring to the larger scale. of those people who have no intention of ever buying a cd. there are hundreds of thousands of people who will never buy another record as long as they are free. i'm not talking about fans of bands or even of music.
as usual, one of the first comments regarding this issue was about my income, and how i have earned enough to justify someone downloading, even though you did say you would buy it, most people don't take that next step.
i am not going to complain and say poor me, i am very grateful for everything.
i have noticed (and agree) that most of you are not from the u.s., and that the internet provides you with access to music you would not have heard before.
i am not sure i agree with bad bretts " without the internet, br would be nothing today". we have been together 27 years, no mtv success, no radio hits. the internet is a great resource, but we are certainly no tila tequila when it comes to an internet fanbase.

yeah, but for TPOB it wasnt the case. they said it themselves, or brett mentioned it, that they dont release albums over the christmas holidays. i never understood that move. i think it was even supposed to come out earlier, and was delayed. but the leak came in time...

"if a finished album leaks 3 months before its release, the real problem lies within the label. you got a finished album sitting on the shelves and it doesnt get released, cause "labels dont release albums over the holidays"?"
They actually hold off in order to promote.

But I do see what you're saying though.

But it removes the possibility of impulse buying that way.
I have bought many albums on an impulse. Sometimes they have been really good (Sham 69 Complete Collection - Really good choice), and sometimes they haven't been so good (Audioslave's first album). Either way the band makes money that they wouldn't have if I had downloaded the leak before the release.

Comments by Banjo from United Kingdom on 2007-06-07 @ 22:17
"However, this is one side of the argument - There are many who wouldn't buy the CD after downloading the leak."
but do you not agree that the majority of these people will not buy the album anyway, even with out a leak they would just wait till someone uploads it?

I have done that before banjo spent something like ?13:99 on an album by a band I did liked and liked the single, listened to the thing once and sat there think what the hell is this. However now I download the CD first even if its by band I like just to make sure i'm not going to get something that does nothing for me. Leaks of albums generally make this easier as I can listen to to it and if i like it pre-order it on amazon as Its hard to get some stuff around here

They may however have a similiar thing to what many had with the last Linkin Park album. It was heavily hyped, and the single was good, but the album sucked (Aside from like 2 songs).
Paying ?14.99 for that (The guys I know who downloaded the leak just listened to it once), and only listening to it once is obviously a complete waste of money.
This is the other side of the argument - Stopping us from wasting loads of money on albums we won't like.

I managed to finish off purchasing the rest just over two years ago, and have listened to the albums more times than the rest of my music collection put together.
As I am really, really looking forward to NMoH, I would download it if it leaks, and buy it when it comes out.
Hell, if it leaks the morning that I go into the CD to buy it (If they'll stock it), I'll download it and put it onto my mp3 player so I can listen to it on the bus on the way there.
However, this is one side of the argument - There are many who wouldn't buy the CD after downloading the leak.

A few weeks later, I was in HMV with ?10 in my pocket. I was looking through the CDs such as Rammstein, Inme, and whatever else I was into at the time, and I saw a copy of "HCHBAW?", and behind it was "Stranger Than Fiction" and "Suffer", and so I bought "HCHBAW?" there and then (As it had the most tracks).
I loved it so much, that as soon as I had the money, I went back into the city and got "Stranger Than Fiction" and "Suffer" which I also loved.
However, as BR ain't too popular in the UK, there wasn't any more CDs in the shop (I'd bought them all), and so whenever I got enough money, I'd order them off the Internet. I bought the rest of BR's releases (Including the 3 live DVDs) online.
I prefer buying the real CDs as you usually have a bigger impulse to listen to it. However, with Bad Religion, they always have interesting CD artwork and lyrics to read in the booklet, and I like the sense of completion I have knowing that I own a real copy of all of their albums.

I live in the UK, and can clearly see both sides of the argument. If it wasn't for the Internet, I wouldn't have been able to buy the whole discography, nevermind just hearing a song by a band.
Up until I discovered BR about 3 years ago, I was into MTV stuff like Linkin Park, KoRn and whatever.
When I heard "You" on THPS2, I loved it, and wanted to find out more about the band. Using the Internet, I was able to find out the name of the band, and using a filesharing program, I managed to aquire the song "You".
I burned it to disk as part of a compilation, and it was the one song I listened to most. As I had a dial-up connection, it wasn't easy to download more songs, but I managed to get one or two more (Gray Race songs, I can't remember which ones), and loved them.

I buy CDs even after I Download them...I just want this to be leaked before July 8th so I can hear it because I will be stuck away from any place I can buy the CD from then to August 18th...and waiting 6 weeks to hear this when I know it is out will be WAY TOO MUCH.

The #1 reason I download an album before its release is because I'm such a big fan, that I don't have the patience to wait it out. If the album is good, I always buy it. (for the record, I own close to 500 cds)
I bought enough crap albums before mp3s that I don't feel bad if I d'load an album, don't like it, and don't buy it. That just makes sense. I have always been of the opinion that "singles" are a form of false advertising...it's the best song on the album, misleading you into thinking that the rest will be good.
I think d'loading is good for bands, especially BR who do not get a lot of airplay even here in the US. Let's put it this way....if Person X d'loads your album..likes it..becomes a fan..they will buy the physical album at some point. If Person X downloads and does not buy it, but never would have known about your band were it not for the 'net, then you're right back where you were before d'loading was ever possible. So bands are one up in this Internet age, IMO.

I don't use pay to download music programs here in the uk as there still expensive and generally on a large track cd is cheaper to buy the cd than individual songs further more I may end up downloading a song I don't like I'm not going to buy anything then. But if I get it off the net then I can try out numerous or maybe and album and if I like it I go out and get it if I don't it gets trashed

Here's a question, would you have refused to download those songs if it had cost you $1, as it does on i-tunes and other sites now? I think that's the real heart of the issue, because you'd have the same benefit of exposure while not violating copyright.

I, as well, would have never gotten as much into BR if I was never able to download the first few songs I heard to check the band out. Well hearing "You" on THPS2 lead me to downloading a few songs but in the end it also made BR my favorite band and also the band that got me into punk music in the first place. Now I own the official discography (minus No Substance since I can't find it in any store! But I'm looking..) and I even bought a German import of Punk Rock Songs just this week to add to my collection. None of this would have happened if not for downloading.

Exactly. I have a lot of friends who downloaded the albums and bought them afterwards. You can't know in advance whether or not you'll like a band. Filesharing is a great way to find new music.
And Jay, I promise you that without the Internet, BR would be nothing today. As someone stated, BR is not the kind of music you hear on the radio.

I also learned of bad religion through downloading them now I on every album "Along the Way" "Live at the..." and other things as well as being to see them

i agree with american jesus and atheist peace... down here in Argentina is almost impossible to hear something of Bad Religion... unless one of your friends spread the word or to get some music on the web... that's how i discovered BR (i own many of the original copies) or Bouncing Souls, or even the old stuff of AFI... i think that many of us downloaded a song to "see how it is" and then got the album...
cheers from Argentina

I have to add something else, though: the internet nowadays is much more efficient, than it was years ago. Back then, there was no MySpace, no iTunes Music Store, no lastfm, youtube, etc etc. Now, I can even listen to song previews with those services, and I admit that, for that matter, the situation has gotten better

I agree with American Jesus. It's not like there's any chance to hear a Bad Religion song on radio, MTV or anything like that, especially in Italy. It might be different in other countries, where they are more popular, for some reason I ignore. Of course it would be easier if BR songs had the same airplay as Green Day and the Offspring. I've been knowing about BR's existence since 2001, and i've had the chance to enjoy their music on TV or radio just a handful of times, and mostly on some obscure channel. The importance of the internet and file sharing programs can't be ignored in this case. If I hadn't downloaded any BR song to begin with, I wouldn't even know about this band, I wouldn't have all the collection of original CDs I have now, I would have had to stick with what MTV had to offer. And that would have been a sad life, if you let me say it.

I'm actually taking a class in copyright law, and just yesterday read the Grokster case. Grokster made the same arguments amjesus is making, MGM made the same arguments Josh is making. One of the main reasons Grokster lost was because they induced copyright violation. They actually were kind of dicks about it. And apparently they never invested in a shredder...

The effects of downloading music is quite huge. Sure bands make money touring, and I am sure they make quite a bit by just making the albums. Perhaps the money they make from album sales isn't huge (but I do beg to differ as knowing people who live off royalty checks alone) It goes much deeper. Studios start to lose money from people downloading albums, Music Stores (who have already seen a posted ave of 20-30% loss in music sales this year!) start to shutter doors, and that just keeps leading down the lower people on the work ladder (I.E Employees).If you want to say "hey! Let music be free" then why stop there? Hell why not deem food free. I mean food is A LOT more important then a CD is. Hold on wait, if that was the case then wouldn't we be putting a lot of people out of business? No, that wouldn't be right! That guy that makes min wage at Taco Bell stands so much higher then those who sell us music.

Most cds in the uk, new ones anyway can cost between ?9.99 to ?15.99 plus depending on where you get them from

What I mean is that RIAA says every dowloaded album is one less sold. There's always people who are without if they cant get it free and there's always people who like to try new bands by dowloading album or two. Myself I have found many great bands by doing this and later bought original copys. There's no other way to find this kind of music. No way I could hear bands like BR, Doa, Social D and etc on here on radio or tv.
And by the way I once copied The Gray Race c-cassette from friend now I own all your cd's, couple t-shirts and many other punk cd's.

Though it may not be the same in Europe.

BR CD's are less expensive than others. A few years ago, several record companies lowered the price of CD's from the $20 range down to the $10 range. Not all companies did that, and some CD's are still in the higher price range.

Jab, I was wondering, could you clear up the issue about the bonus tracks on the different releases? For example, this site says something about the Japanese version having two bonus tracks: http://tinyurl.com/23apaw
And what's up with there being two different versions of NMoH?

What I don't get is why BR albums are so expensive. Ok, I know this is your job and I agree that people should buy the albums, but still...
As a musician, I'm glad if someone even bothers listening to my songs. And honestly, I don't believe that I'm a less talented songwriter than Greg or Brett (musicwise). If someone downloads my songs, I don't say "Fuck you, thief!" I say, "Wow, I'm really glad that you like what I'm doing".
As far as I know bands earn the most money on touring, and people who download BR records are more likely to attend the shows, so I don't see the big deal.
I'm sure you already have earned more money than I will do in a lifetime Jay.
I will buy the album the very day it comes out, but I hope that everyone who isn't into BR right now will "steal" it.

While I'm at it feel free not to answer this jay but what effect does piracy actually have on bad religions sales or are you not privy to that kind of information?

I think the artists are getting a hell of a lot of stick mainly due to the way the RIAA and what no are trying to tackle this situation and effectively the RIAA are making the problem worse. File sharing can be a good thing for both new and old bands for getting noticed, there is a problem but that will always be there till prices come down or file sharing networks are out the way. I admit if a leak of an album I want occurs I'm downloading it, but I'm also buying the cd when it comes out.

i'll probably regret this, but amjesus, i don't work for the riaa. i have, however, been playing in this band for 27 years. i think i have a pretty good idea about how and why things are the way they are. this may prove to be an enlightening discussion about the effects of file sharing, or just another flamebait argument... whatever. if you're going to throw something like that last statement out there, someone should at least be allowed to retort on behalf of the artist.

Don't believe RIAA's bullshit people!

Dan, WTF? I will buy the album twice and thrice, CDs, regular/limited edition, imported if it has bonus tracks, vinyl. I'd also download the album in a heartbeat if it does get leaked, because they are my favorite band and I won't miss the chance to listen to the album earlier if I can. So get off your high horse and stop assuming that everybody who downloads the album won't buy it.

If people are going to download an album an not buy it there going to download if it leaks or if it does not.
Just because someone downloads a leak does not mean they are not going to buy the album as well. People who won't buy the album aren't going to whether the leak happens now or whether its the real version thats ripped.

People who d/l 'leaked' albums are only doing themselves a disservice. If you steal from the band, you can't bitch and moan about them not touring/breaking up etc etc.
Having said that, what's the excuse for the guys not showing any love for their Australian fans in over 10 years?
Dan - BRtoOZ
myspace.com/badreligiontooz

if a finished album leaks 3 months before its release, the real problem lies within the label. you got a finished album sitting on the shelves and it doesnt get released, cause "labels dont release albums over the holidays"? (TPOB)

Ohhh the harsh truth of it all, would someone think of the children

There you have the reason why the album hasn't leaked yet.