Diego, just for the record, Brett Religion is me, Dogbert, do you still feel like thanking me? ;-P

Jesse, I agree with you, the problem here though is that poor Ninty Man's only motivation to come to this site and post comments seems to reside in comparing The Offspring to Bad Religion (big, big mistake!) and trying to make everyone believe that Bad Religion are a pop-punk (or punk-pop or whatever!) band, which clearly they are not. Just because The Offspring have got demoted to pop-punk, not all the bands you like have to get demoted too.

Jesse wrote: I think this discussion has gone too far now. It's not about the actual news item anymore. So please open a topic on the forum if you want to continue this childish discussion! It's all a matter of taste. End of discussion. Jesse

Ok... wow, we take it far XD

Brett Religion wrote: So much for The Offspring, Ninty Man. This site is called thebrpage.net . Get it? It's The Bad Religion Page. Get it? It's about Bad Religion.

ajjajaja i couldnÂŽt say that better.. thank you

So much for The Offspring, Ninty Man. This site is called thebrpage.net . Get it? It's The Bad Religion Page. Get it? It's about Bad Religion.

Agreed on Ixnay on the Hombre and Ignition but I would add their 1st album too as well as Conspiracy of One.

diego wrote: jimbobonmynob wrote: I bet diego owns a couple of Offspring records just like everyone else. no thanx.. i dont waste my money in that kind of music.. and for the guy that keeps saying that "BR is punk pop" .... i don't think so.. the only "pop" here is offspring with shitty songs like "why dont you get a job" , "original prankster" or stuff like that...THAT'S POP (or pop rock or whatever you want call it). I don't see any br song similar to thouse songs

I love my computer, ALL into the unknown is pop even everyone keeps saying is progressive -ever heard seaflock...-, well... all New america is a punk pop album. That kind of music??? Yes, Original Prankster is a dull song, but pretty fun to play, and why don't you get a job is a rip off from obla di-obla dah, but is a cool ska song. The worst offspring will be Da Hui, hehehe.

You should buy Ixnay on the hombre-Ignition. That's the best from Offspring. And you should listen more that the singles... even this time in Rise and fall rage and grace they are awesome :Hammerhead and you're gonna far kid.

jimbobonmynob wrote: I bet diego owns a couple of Offspring records just like everyone else.

no thanx.. i dont waste my money in that kind of music.. and for the guy that keeps saying that "BR is punk pop" .... i don't think so.. the only "pop" here is offspring with shitty songs like "why dont you get a job" , "original prankster" or stuff like that...THAT'S POP (or pop rock or whatever you want call it). I don't see any br song similar to thouse songs

I bet diego owns a couple of Offspring records just like everyone else.

Diego wrote: Ninty Man UNAM wrote: diego wrote: however.. dexter and offspring sucks.. they're just became another shitty punk pop band like good charlotte and simple plan . end of disscusion. Bad Religion is punk pop. yeah, right... ninty go and make some sauce with your "hero" dex. both of you got the same kind of intelligence

Uh, I wish I could be a molecular byologist, and make Gringo Bandito -and be a nice person- Well, I'm finishing my degree about History, and I'll make for the masters history about punk... someday.

And why the hate, Bad Religion makes and is a punk pop band. Look to most of the BR songs since 1991 today, and they have pop structure

Ninty Man UNAM wrote: diego wrote: however.. dexter and offspring sucks.. they're just became another shitty punk pop band like good charlotte and simple plan . end of disscusion. Bad Religion is punk pop.

yeah, right...
ninty go and make some sauce with your "hero" dex. both of you got the same kind of intelligence

Andrju wrote: Look at you. Fighting over who is a "better" singer/band. How fucking punk is that.

Punk as fuck XD

Look at you.

Fighting over who is a "better" singer/band.

How fucking punk is that.

diego wrote: however.. dexter and offspring sucks.. they're just became another shitty punk pop band like good charlotte and simple plan . end of disscusion.

Bad Religion is punk pop.

however.. dexter and offspring sucks.. they're just became another shitty punk pop band like good charlotte and simple plan . end of disscusion.

Brett Religion wrote: Don't be ridiculous, Ninty Man! Dexter Holland's biggest achievement as a molecular biologist was creating that sauce he sells... Besides, All I Want is a Bad Religion song. Everyone knows that. I think someone here has overdosed on chili and tacos...

Ok, to not make this a Dex thread: Brett rejected Protocol song from Dexter, and he decided use it as an Offspring song.

Wow. You really have the energy to discuss about Offspring. Good for you.

Well, "You're Gonna Go Far, Kid" is actually quite nice.

I think BR are experimenting more lately as they become less worried about creating another ITU. They've even started experimenting with the timing structure (Submission Complete)

Good piece, AlMac. When I saw such a long message, I was ready to jump at you and do some trash-talking, but I found your mini essay actually interesting.

However, I don't agree on BR not having experimented enough in the last records. Songs like The Defense, Bored, Boot Stamping, Beyond Electric Dreams (all courtesy of Brett, go figure!)... Would you have expected that style from them in the early 90's??? On the contrary, Dexter et al have become progressively more formulaic. They either try to re-create a happy sappy tune a la Pretty Fly, Hit That, Original Prankster and clones or they go for a Smash-era fast song, but that's about what you get from those guys these days.

I don't know... Take Prodigal Son, does that sound like any other previous BR song? Bad Religion is headed in the right direction, rest assured. NMoH is the best of their last three albums. I think experimenting involves more than using unconventional instruments. It has to do more with different approaches when writing songs (not resorting to the usual structures) as they did in Recipe for Hate (All Good Soldiers, Don't Pray on Me come to mind) and I saw that in songs like Prodigal Son, Before You Die or Dearly Beloved, which stand among the best songs in their whole catalogue.

I do agree Greg has a better stage presence than Dexter. I saw the latter live a couple of weeks ago and in songs that didn't require him to use the guitar (The Offspring perform live now with two full-time guitar players and Dexter) he didn't move much. You could tell he felt more comfortable holding the guitar as if it was his perfect excuse for his poor stage presence.

diego wrote: where the fuck you guys got that dexter is a scientist?? come on .. he doesn't even finished school...

Please do your homework...Dexter did finish school. If I'm correct he has a Master's degree in Molecular Biology and was also a PhD.candidate. However he preferred touring with The Offspring over getting his PhD.

Also, I'd like to add that it's just a matter of taste, whether you like The Offspring over Bad Religion and vice versa.
You can't compare the bands, nor the singers. And remember, without Bad Religion, The Offspring probably would never have become so popular. And without The Offspring, Bad Religion's career could have been completely different (what would have happened with Epitaph and Brett?).

DaymanVersusNightman wrote: The Offspring suck now, who cares about dexter.

i agree.. offspring and dexter sucks a lot... by the way.. where the fuck you guys got that dexter is a scientist?? come on .. he doesn't even finished school... let's be real please .. and for that guy that said "he's is a genius".. GOD! GENIUS!!!!! einstein was a genius.. not a fucking "punk" poser...

The Offspring suck now, who cares about dexter.

I want to jump into the Graffin vs. Holland debate!

I think in regards to musicality, Holland is a more proficient writer - that is to say, a fair proportion of The Offspring's songs are better structured than Bad Religion's. Also, he's willing to take bigger risks: Bad Religion have stayed clear of experimenting with instruments that transcend the punk genre. BR have had a muffled violin, a few jazz licks and some simplistic and under-emphasised piano sections ("...Gonna Die"/"... of Mars"/etc). Of course, this is without considering the unpunk "Into The Unknown", which has perhaps left a 25 year scar on BR's confidence. I'm not, however, saying there's a massive or even non-intersecting difference between the two.

To take a different perspective, Graffin has stayed truer to punk and so their functions are different and, now, perhaps incomparable. Also, comparison is somewhat illusive, given BR's periods of strength were in the 1980s (chronologically incomparable to Offspring), early/mid-1990s (only partially comparable) - or, arguably, BR had the edge on experimentation, 'til 1994. Then, BR's weak period (1998-2000) coincided with Offspring strong and most "successful" period. And now BR, although less popular, are matching Offspring, if not bettering them (esp. w/ "Process..."). However, I feel this is a decline in The Offspring, rather than a "marked" musical improvement by BR.

Lyrically, I think The Offspring's moments of inspiration are under-appreciated - when they get it right, it's pretty decent. And, Graffin can be excessive - there's lyrical strength found by way of message and lyrical weakness inherent in verbosity. Take Dylan, at times simple, but profoundly powerful. BR had a wonderful stream-of-consciousness type balance in 1988-1990. Subsequently, I think they've had successes and failures. Nevertheless, with Graffin's (and Brett) analytical rigour, combined with a genuine emotive compulsion, he forms powerful and effective tunes - especially for the already converted.

As a singer, Holland is very nasal and has never seemed to be able to centre his voice. However, he has pushed himself - unfortunately not always to good effect. Graffin knows (fortunately) his parameters and adeptly works within them - even in folk/americana. His voice is generally centred, which has been especially beneficial on their recent tours. His energy seems to be lacking, but his focus is definitely improving. Also, perhaps I'm inaccurate in saying this, but he seems more confident on stage than Holland - perhaps an indication that studio experimentation doesn't always pay off. Graffin's solo work is deceptively unexperimental - "Cold as the Clay" was deliberately simplisitic, which worked very well. "American Lesion" was more experimental, but lacked production value.

As a scientist: Graffin has utilised his knowledge for song writing - most albums hold some scientific underpinning. Holland doesn't do this - it's "unpopular" or, perhaps Holland considers it undesirable. Also, Graffin is a practicing scientist; he's affiliated with an Ivy League University and lectures at a world top-30 institution. Holland is obviously well educated, but without undertaking a lengthy research of a PhD he can't really be compared to Graffin. Or, given the difference between the two respective scientific fields, perhaps they can't be compared at all. Although, it's interesting that Graffin specialised and directed his focus to a more esoteric and obscure discipline than Holland.

Well, this has got long. And now I doubt people will read it! At least it delayed my essay writing by 20 minutes.

Alex

Great to see Greg on there, his vocal tone and lyrics are in a league all their own....I must say that for a mainstream publication's list their picks are excellent.....especially in comparison to what Rolling Stone or AP would have chosen. I'd like to add that it's wonderful to see good ol' Henry Rollins on the list- his anguished screaming and growling make all other bands before or since look fucking tame by comparison (just watch "Damaged I" live in Philadelphia on YouTube....you'd think a deranged and angry Tiger had just been let out of it's cage.)

against the grain is the most perfect album ive ever heard.

How is Recipe for Hate there essential album? American Jesus?

Don't be ridiculous, Ninty Man! Dexter Holland's biggest achievement as a molecular biologist was creating that sauce he sells...

Besides, All I Want is a Bad Religion song. Everyone knows that.

I think someone here has overdosed on chili and tacos...

Darwin At Work wrote: I think Greg gets bonus points over Dexter for his versatility at the very least. Graffin is more than a punk singer. Don't get me wrong, the Offspring helped introduce me to punk and I still dig them to an extent, but would you really want to listen to a Dexter Holland version of Cold as the Clay? I never got to hear Greg's take on the National Anthem either... I'm sure if Dex tried that it would be, dare I say, unbarable, while I could see Graffin actually doing the song justice.

I agree with that, but I can't hear greg singing All I want, Bad Habit. Versatility??? Maybe, but I prefer Dexter over Greg even Greg is a better singer, writer...

Is just a matter of taste

Greg's number 1 in my mind

I think Greg gets bonus points over Dexter for his versatility at the very least. Graffin is more than a punk singer. Don't get me wrong, the Offspring helped introduce me to punk and I still dig them to an extent, but would you really want to listen to a Dexter Holland version of Cold as the Clay? I never got to hear Greg's take on the National Anthem either... I'm sure if Dex tried that it would be, dare I say, unbarable, while I could see Graffin actually doing the song justice.

tommy wrote: Dexter is a better scientist than Greg, therefore he is a better singer. hmmm...best argument ever? I think their most essential album is the Process Of Belief. It contains a hit song ( sorrow), It's got a couple of punk rock songs. And a few mid-tempo rock songs. There is something there for every fan. All these top whatever's are always talking about albums before 1995. They make BR look like they don't make good albums anymore. I think they still make very good albums.

Don't put things I didn't say. I'm just saying dex is a better scientist, and that he deserves be there with graffin. He's not better singer or lyricist that Graffin, but he's a little bit cooler.

AH, they should put new maps of hell, best album of 2007 -best of 2008 is Rise and fall XD

No it should have been Into The Unknown!!

Dexter is a better scientist than Greg, therefore he is a better singer. hmmm...best argument ever?

I think their most essential album is the Process Of Belief. It contains a hit song ( sorrow), It's got a couple of punk rock songs. And a few mid-tempo rock songs. There is something there for every fan.
All these top whatever's are always talking about albums before 1995. They make BR look like they don't make good albums anymore. I think they still make very good albums.

And by the way... why is an essential album Recipe for hate??? Is pretty boring sometimes... fucking IGN, why didn't they put against the grain?

I don't know, I just made an statement. But yes, Dexter is a molecular biologist, my friend who studies biology says that's pretty hard

Geez, do we have to turn this into an anti-Dexter fiasco?

holland abettert scientist than GREG ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh you are fanny,but here we are serious,so you must talking SERIOSLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Diego wrote: Ricardo Said wrote: OK... is glad to see greg there... but fuck, Lyndon AKA Rotten is one of the biggest posers of all time. Where's Strummer, Biafra, Dexter Holland -hate me, I don't give a fuck- Lindberg and Quakenbush? Dexter holland?? JAJAJajaJAJJAjaAJJAJAJAJa that's what i call a REAL poser! dont put him between strummer and biafra for god sake!

YEs, I put that comment. Holland isn't a poser, he's a genius -and a better scientist than greg, at least in the experimental field-. Well, Holland is so punk rocker that he is in a picture next to greg and joe escalante XD

Ricardo Said wrote: OK... is glad to see greg there... but fuck, Lyndon AKA Rotten is one of the biggest posers of all time. Where's Strummer, Biafra, Dexter Holland -hate me, I don't give a fuck- Lindberg and Quakenbush?

Dexter holland?? JAJAJajaJAJJAjaAJJAJAJAJa that's what i call a REAL poser! dont put him between strummer and biafra for god sake!

Is the person who compiled this list aware that John Lydon now advertises Country Life butter? Those adverts are terrible...

Greg was bound to be on the list, but the absence of Biafra and Strummer is a bit remiss.

People still use the word "poser" as a serious insult?

OK... is glad to see greg there... but fuck, Lyndon AKA Rotten is one of the biggest posers of all time. Where's Strummer, Biafra, Dexter Holland -hate me, I don't give a fuck- Lindberg and Quakenbush?